NCAA Wresting Tournament

Looks like your supporting Lucas's point. 2 out of 330 make it with a losing record or less than 1%. But 20% qualify for state at 5A. 1% is an anomaly, 20% is too much. Anyway I know Camdem from Purdue, and he had a stacked schedule this year and he missed some of the easier matches.

I don't have a problem with kids qualifying for state with losing record, the problem in Kansas is its statistically too easy to qualify for state, as the bar is set low. 50% of potential varsity spots qualify for state in 5A or 6A. With all the open spots, more than 50% of varsity wrestlers qualify, that's why you have so many losing records.

You guys can huff and puff about these kids earned it and they deserve recognition. But I think its a valid discussion to look at the qualifying process in Kansas.

Here is the deal. Look at it, try to change it, hypothesize about alternate outcomes, throw statistics at it until the cows come home. If nothing changes, then the wrestlers that make it to State deserve to be there. They are still busting their tails in practice (helping teammates), they are still there at the end of the year, they are still sacrificing to make weight, and if they happen to fall into a bracket that presents an opportunity to make it to State, and they make it happen, then they deserve to be there.

Are we still arguing this?

Seasons over! Think I will check out of the net until November. Can pick back up on this discussion then.

Been an interesting season. Haven't had this much fun since grandma caught her t_t in the wringer.

Wins at this level are a little tougher to come by. It is not a apples to apples comparison. I know Goettl and Araujua. Goettle was a Fargo Champ. Aragujua an All American. His dad was a World Champ from Russia.

Their total season records were most likely much better before they stripped the wins against D2, NJCAA, D3, and NAIA wrestlers.

Add a few more to the list:
141 Scott Mattingly (CMICH) 15-22
157 Brian Tanen (LEHIGH) 7-15
285 Peter Capone (OSU) 14-15
285 Cole Tobin (WISC) 8-16

That makes 6 total wrestlers with losing records. There were also a quite few kids with .500 or one win above records, but I didn't want to count them up.

Even more interesting there are 4 wrestlers from the Big Ten with losing records in the tournament. Must be the worst conference in college wrestling.

We need to go with

48 Biggest schools with wrestling (4 12 team regionals)
64 Next biggest schools with wrestling (4 16 team regionals)
The rest...

At most, we only need three classifications. (Someone list the schools that do NOT have programs)

BIG 48 Total enrollment 71,512

Wichita-East 2308
Olathe East 2023
Olathe South 2005
Wichita-North 1983
Garden City 1976
Olathe North 1920
Derby 1891
Shawnee Mission West 1826
Shawnee Mission Northwest 1800
Shawnee Mission East 1797
Dodge City 1782
Topeka-Washburn Rural 1756
Junction City 1753
Olathe Northwest 1730
Topeka 1702
OP-Blue Valley Northwest 1659
Manhattan 1599
Wichita-Southeast 1561
Wichita-Heights 1556
Shawnee Mission North 1546
OP- Blue Valley North 1535
Wichita-Haysville Campus 1532
Lawrence 1525
Lawrence-Free State 1509
Maize 1489
Wichita-Northwest 1446
Shawnee Mission South 1408
Wichita-South 1403
Hutchinson 1395
Gardner-Edgerton 1345
OP-Blue Valley West 1334
Leavenworth 1289
Wichita-West 1281
Stilwell-Blue Valley 1260
Kansas City-Wyandotte 1224
Liberal 1203
Emporia 1176
Kansas City-JC Harmon 1171
Topeka-Seaman 1165
Wichita-Bishop Carroll 1150
Shawnee-Mill Valley 1140
Kansas City-Turner 1139
Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights 1109
Salina-South 1106
Topeka West 1024
Newton 1020
OP-St. Thomas Aquinas 981
Kansas City-Washington 980


Middle 64 (Someone please let me know which schools don't have a program) Total enrollment 37524

Great Bend 952
Salina-Central 939
OP-Blue Valley Southwest 909
Goddard 903
Wichita-Kapaun Mount Carmel 901
Lansing 859
Valley Center 811
Hays 800
Andover 786
Kansas City-FL Schlagle 778
Arkansas City 765
Topeka-Highland Park 753
Andover Central 747
Goddard-Eisenhower 740
SM-Bishop Miege 740
Winfield 720
Pittsburg 717
Bonner Springs 709
Maize South 697
Lenexa-St. James Academy 689
McPherson 683
De Soto 679
Kansas City-Sumner Academy 642
Paola 638
Buhler 636
Ottawa 633
Spring Hill 625
Tonganoxie 620
Basehor-Linwood 607
Rose Hill 582
Mulvane 581
Independence 570
Chanute 565
Augusta 560
El Dorado 557
Fort Scott 555
Towanda-Circle 545
Altamont-Labette County 544
Kansas City-Piper 537
Coffeyville-Field Kindley 517
Topeka-Hayden 500
Louisburg 492
Wellington 486
Abilene 484
Atchison 468
Baldwin 445
Ulysses 443
Wamego 434
Andale 428
Eudora 418
Parsons 393
Iola 386
Clearwater 384
Carbondale-Santa Fe Trail 363
Osawatomie 355
Girard 343
Chapman 338
Kansas City-Bishop Ward 331
Garnett-Anderson County 327
Pratt 327
Holton 326
Columbus 319
LaCygne-Prairie View 319
Concordia 313
Lindsborg-Smoky Valley 311

The rest...242 Schools (some don't have wrestling) Total enrollment 32,369

Clay Center Community 306
Meriden-Jefferson West 301
Perry-Lecompton 301
Wichita-Trinity Academy 299
Hugoton 295
Colby 291
Hoyt-Royal Valley 288
Larned 286
Nickerson 280
Baxter Springs 279
Hesston 266
Wichita-Collegiate 264
Cheney 261
Hiawatha 261
Haven 258
Burlington 254
Frontenac 252
Kingman 251
Easton-Pleasant Ridge 250
Goodland 249
Riverton 249
Hays-TMP-Marian 247
Holcomb 247
Scott Community 245
St. George-Rock Creek 244
Gypsum-Southeast of Saline 241
Silver Lake 240
Halstead 234
Marysville 234
Russell 234
Beloit 233
Douglass 230
Neodesha 230
Anthony/Harper-Chaparral
Cherryvale 229
Caney-Caney Valley 228
Council Grove 226
Effingham-Atchison Co Community
Sabetha 226
Wellsville 225
Cherokee-Southeast 223
Conway Springs 223
Riley County 222
Osage City 221
Norton Community 219
Galena 218
Pomona-West Franklin 215
Wichita-The Independent 212
Minneapolis 211
Garden Plain 210
Rossville 201
Belle Plaine 196
Phillipsburg 195
Fredonia 191
Wathena-Riverside 191
Kismet-Southwestern Hts. 189
Cimarron 188
Richmond-Central Heights 187
Atchison-Maur Hill-Mount Academy
Horton 183
Leon-Bluestem 183
Hillsboro 181
Lyons 181
Marion 181
Lakin 179
Hoisington 175
Sedgwick 175
Erie 174
Eureka 172
Salina-Sacred Heart 171
Seneca-Nemaha Valley 171
St. Marys 170
Humboldt 168
Hutchinson-Trinity Cath. 166
McLouth 166
Pittsburg-St. Marys Colgan 166
* Salina-St. John's Military Academy
Whitewater-Remington 163
Moundridge 162
Eskridge-Mission Vly. 158
Prairie Village-KCC 156
Sterling 156
Arma-Northeast 155
Ellsworth 154
Smith Center 153
Elbing-Berean Acad. 150
Brookville-Ell-Saline 148
Inman 146
Shawnee-Maranatha Academy
Herington 145
Meade 145
Oswego 145
Lyndon 144
Medicine Lodge 144
Mound City-Jayhawk Linn 144
Oakley 144
Winchester-Jefferson County North
Valley Falls 142
Sublette 140
Belleville-Republic Co. 139
Washington County 139
Uniontown 138
Bennington 137
Allen-Northern Hts. 131
Alma-Wabaunsee 131
Elkhart 129
Oskaloosa 129
Plainville 129
Ellinwood 128
Holton-Jackson Hts. 126
Claflin-Central Plains 125
Greensburg-Kiowa Co. 125
Yates Center 125
Leoti-Wichita County 124
Oxford 124
Cottonwood Falls-Chase County
Hill City 121
Johnson-Stanton Co. 120
Ellis 119
Leavenworth-Immaculata 119
Oberlin-Decatur Comm. 117
Highland-Doniphan West 114
Onaga 114
Solomon 114
Syracuse 114
Burlingame 113
Wakeeney-Trego Comm. 113
Canton-Galva 111
Troy 111
Pleasanton 110
Ness City 109
Kinsley 107
Moran-Marmaton Vly. 107
Sedan 107
Atwood-Rawlins Co. 106
Lincoln 106
Lebo 103
Howard-West Elk 102
Peabody-Burns 102
Melvern-Marais Des Cygnes Valley
Pratt-Skyline 100
Little River 99
Olpe 99
Jetmore-Hodgeman Co. 99
St. John-Hudson 99
Downs-Lakeside 98
La Crosse 98
Langdon-Fairfield
Quinter 98
St. Francis 98
Burden-Central 97
Wakefield 97
Blue Rapids-Valley Hts. 96
Lost Springs-Centre 96
Macksville 95
Mankato-Rock Hills 95
Coldwater-South Central 93
Montezuma-South Gray 92
Udall 92
Deerfield 91
Osborne 91
Scandia-Pike Valley 91
Lawrence-Bishop Seabury Academy
Spearville 89
Hartford 88
Hoxie 87
Randolph-Blue Valley 87
White City 87
Satanta 86
Stockton 86
Minneola 84
St. Paul 84
Madison 81
Goessel 80
Hanover 80
Pretty Prairie 80
South Haven 80
Rosalia-Flinthills 78
Clyde-Clifton Clyde 77
Kensington-Thunder Ridge
Waverly 77
Linn 76
Burrton 75
Centralia 75
Caldwell 74
Leroy-Southern Coffey Co. 74
Ashland 71
Sylvan Grove-Sylvan-Lucas Unified
Bucklin 70
Dighton 70
Norwich 70
Ingalls 69
Stafford 69
Victoria 68
Chetopa 67
Kiowa-South Barber 67
Sharon Springs-Wallace County
Wallace County 66
Baileyville-B&B 65
Rexford-Golden Plains 65
Frankfort 64
Otis-Bison 64
Hope 63
Logan 62
McPherson-Elyria Christian
Colony-Crest 60
Longton-Elk Valley 59
Tribune-Greeley County 59
Grainfield-Wheatland/Grinnell
Wetmore 58
Olathe-Kansas State School for the Deaf
Axtell 56
Fowler 56
Buffalo-Altoona Midway 55
Moscow 55
Argonia 53
Cunningham 53
Dexter 53
Rolla 53
Tescott 53
Natoma 52
Almena-Northern Valley 50
Glasco 50
Wilson 50
Bird City-Cheylin 49
Junction City-St. Xavier 49
Palco 48
Ransom-Western Plains 47
Attica 44
Chase 44
Bern 43
Weskan 39
Beloit-St. Johns 38
Hutchinson-Central Christian
Cedar Vale 34
Hamilton 28
Healy 28
Miltonvale 27
Brewster 26
Rozel-Pawnee Heights 23
Winona-Triplains 23
Tipton Catholic 14


Arguably we should go to two classes:

BIG 48 total enrollment 71,000 plus
SMALL 306 total enrollment 69,000 plus...


With only three classifications we could have all state tournaments in one site, especially if we expanded it to a third day.

Cokely,

Totally right. Kansas has so many kids qualifying for state, it can't even manage the tournament at one site. And as a result they lose money on the tournaments. 3 classes would be good. 2 would be just right. My opinion is when you qualify everybody it takes the recognition from your outstanding athletes. You know these kids, the ones that wrestle year round and go to camps and put the time in. They now get grouped in with the ordinary wrestler on the team. Set up a system that rewards the elite wrestlers, make the term "state qualifer" means something.

Kansas is a low population state with a lot of wrestling classifications. Nebraska and Oklahoma are just as guilty of this and Missouri maybe a higher population state, but they don't need four classes.

Look at the eastern states,(NJ,OH,PA,MI, NY, IL, IN,IA) they have fewer classes and higher populations. The competition pushes them and raises their levels. If you're a state qualifier in these states, you're a stud and people know it.

Just like beating horses.

OK,

2% of the guys at the NCAAs have losing records. But you know were comparing apples to Oranges when we look at state tournament and NCAA qualifying.

It is what it is. Have you paid attention to some of the horrible teams/records that qualify for the State Football playoffs in every class? I'm talking about 2-7...in some cases 1-8. Losing records dot the State Basketball landscape. 130 feet javelin throws qualify an individual for State Track in one regional while a 160 thrower in another regional stays home. Bottom line...it always gets sorted out at respective state events. These wrestlers with losing records aren't placing, so to me, it's no big deal.

Maybe too many classes in other sports too. Also should make state qualification on overall record. Not just some 3 game pre season scheduled regional.

Have to admit my Alma Mater was one of those 2-7 teams.

[quote=fan of the sport "Set up a system that rewards the elite wrestlers,"
[/quote]

There already is. Its called the podium. The more "elite" you are, the higher you go.

There already is. Its called the podium. The more "elite" you are, the higher you go.[/quote]

Do we need 56 podiums in Kansas?

I agree that we need to figure out a way to fill the brackets. But I cant help trying to visualize the future of peoples views, if we combine all these schools, for bigger and "better" quilifying tournament. Someone or prob. more than one person will be pi$$e@ off becuase thier kid is ranked in the top 5 of the state, but his reginal was stacked and he did not make it to state, because of the way everything set up. No matter what is decided, somebody is not going to be happy. JMO

NO there are 4 podiums, 1 per class. debating weight classes is a another argument, but nationally not just KS.

I know I am going to regret this but I would like to add a thought to this subject if I may. I coached wrestling for three decades in this state and did most of it in class 5A. For most of that time, that classification was hands down the toughest in the state. Like any of them, it rises and falls with the trends of the programs, no big deal. As coaches and parents, educators and providers, we only have a couple of obligations. We are given these jobs for one real reason and that is to help kids as they build their experience base for real life and the state wrestling tourney is not real life. We are here to help them experience exciting and stimulating days before things get real serious and sometimes ugly.

So, once in a while things get a little slim and some (wonderful) kids with less than stellar records make it to the state meet. Tell you a secret, when they walk in that meet in that big parade, they are just as thrilled and just a worthy as that kid beside him with that sparkling 40-0 record. It means as much to his parents, and to his school, but most of all to him as it does that three timer that he is following. They don't all have to be nationally ranked wrestlers of renown to deserve to be thrilled a little in this small window of their lives.

I coached 27 kids in my career who are no longer living on this earth, nine who are or were in prison, many who are very very successful in their vocational pursuits and hundreds who have wonderful families and meaningful careers and I didn't have much to do with their outcome, but I hope that I helped them to feel like winners and that day when they got to walk in with that parade was not the high point of their life, but something thrilling and fullfilling for that moment in time. After the first round most of those guys are gone anyway, so then all of you can get down to watching those guys that you think are so worthy of the state tourney. Fellas, I think we got to remember who we all do this thing for and somewhere along the line, not everybody does. That is a shame.

Maybe you're right, start with ripping those district champ patches off the letter jackets. make a statement start small, move your way up the chain. i mean if you walk into the KSHSAA meeting complaining about weak classes with your 2-7 patch on, you've lost all credibility.

No regret required Coach. Most likely they are not as good, but they are just as worthy. They have put in the work just like the 40-0 guy.

Well coach or former coach tell me something those kids that you talk about walking in the parade do not exist in 4a and 3a. So is it fair to those kids? Why is it that in 5a we allow the below .500 wrestlers, (45 of them) get to experience the parade but in 4a and 3a only 6 of those kids get to experience it. I can tell you why,

Logic tells me that if you have 4, 8 man regionals 50% of the kids in 5a make it to State.

Logic also tells me that in 4a if you have 4 16 man regionals 20% of the kids make it to state.

5a had 360 wrestlers in regionals this year, trying to fill 224 spots. That means that 62% of all wrestlers in 5a compete in the State Tournament.

4a had 603 wrestlers in regionals this year, also trying to fill 224 spots. That means that 37% of the kids in 4a wrestler in state.

That is the true reason that 45 wrestlers made it in to 5a stae this year with less than .500 records you take 62% of the field.

Thats not elite at all. 5a needs to drop down to 2 regionals and have an 8 man brackets at state. This would put you a 31% of the 5a wrestlers competing in the state tournament, also this would eliminate those guaranteed losses like you say that only help rack up team points.

Also you guys keep saying these kids earned there way to the state tournament. Well I disagree 5a had 13 kids make it to state this year with out HAVING TO WIN A MATCH! 13 KIDS ALSO 85 kids made it with only winning one match. 126 kids in 5a had to win 2 matches. 0 kids had to win 3 matches!0 kids had to win 4 matches!

In 4a 4 kids had to win 4 matches to make it to state, what about the 80 kids that had to win 3 matches, or how about the 140 that had to win 2

Im not talking total matches wrestled Im talking matches to qualify. Why is it so much easier to get to the 5a tournament. It should be that same for every kid in the sate. We should not give 5a a pass because they cannot fill a roster.

I don't care about any of that. I don't "keep saying" anything. I think this is a non issue. I been around a long time, and in that time each classification have had their days and years where they were the "best" and other divisions were having a hard time. It doesn't matter to me what you think of how "hard" it is to get to the state in 4A. I know that is the point you are trying to make. Big deal, it is different in every weight class and in every division, and it changes by the year. We are in the business of helping kids, not eliminating opportunities for them to compete. I think this topic is stupid and without merit. All your stats and comparisons are a waste of time for me.

Lucas hates Ark City, end of story. He does not care about the sport of wrestling in Kansas. He volunteers NO time, he donates NO resources, you will never change his mind. Lucas only cares about Lucas' beef with Beeson. This is all an elaborate ploy to get back at Chad. He still hasn't taken down his weak class 5a football patch. he still won't admit that others have offered better solutions, for a more equal state series. he simply wants to get under Beesons skin.