I guess we can hash this out to infinity but since we are dealing with a State Government entity I suppose we would have to contact or write a Senator or Congressman to get any results. Simply petitioning the KSHSAAA to make the change would just fall on deaf ears. If you have a friend in Topeka who can help make this change then I suggest that you approach them. It's probably too late for the kids being subjected to this right now, but maybe for next year.

That is basically how it works; the local school has the opportunity to "make it right" first and report the incident and action taken; if what is done is not to the satisfaction of the KSHSAA, Topeka can impose further/additional sanctions.

yeh, involve ANOTHER layer of government to tell a governmental entity charged with a specific responsibility how to handle that responsibility. That'll FOR SURE make it better.

Whether we like it or not, or believe it or not, the KSHSAA rules are written and largely enforced by the MEMBER institutions that make up the KSHSAA. The Board of Directors is made up of mostly of duly elected school administrators and members of BOE's. You can go on the KSHSAA website and see who those people are and you can petition THEM for a change. However, don't be surprised if not everyone agrees that the MS wrestling season is the most deserving of its undivided attention.

Some interpretations by KSHAAA of Off-Season Programs/Outside Competition – During the School Year

Based on numerous questions from parents and club coaches concerning what is permitted during the school year outside the season of sport below are some interpretations of KSHSAA rules.

Here are a few definitions that will help clarify some rules.

School coaches may not be involved in off season practices or competitions.

Outside Competition (Non-School teams)
During the school year outside the season of sport no more than (3-basketball; 4-volleyball; 5-8-man football, baseball & softball; 6-11 man football and soccer) may play/practice or be rostered on the same nonschool/outside team.

School Year
Defined as the Tuesday after Labor Day until the Saturday before Memorial Day.

School Squad
Defined as Varsity, JV, 9 th, A-team, B-team, etc. Any amount of time played in a contest (pinch runner, 1 quarter, 1 play, etc) constitutes squad membership. A player could be a member of several squads.

Non-School-Team membership
The number of players allowed on an non-school/outside team during the school year outside the season of sport is based on the previous school years roster. Limits are 3-basketball; 4-volleyball; 5-8-man football, baseball & softball; 6-11 man football and soccer.

Non-School/Outside team
Any team that is not part of the school program.

Private Instruction
Defined as one student receiving instruction from one person during a period of instruction. A support person
(no more than 2) may be present at Private Instruction but may not receive instruction. For example during a basketball lesson one person could pass the ball while another played defense but may not receive instruction.

Group Instruction
Defined as two or more students receiving instruction from an instructor during the same period of instruction.

Open Gym
If a school provides an open gym it must be announced to the entire student body, it cannot be for only a select or designated group of people. NO INSTRUCTION may be given by anyone during an open gym. A coach employed by the school cannot supervise the open gym if the sport they coach is being played. Example: if
the batting cages are being used the baseball/softball coaches cannot organize or supervise the open gym.

Camp/Clinic (not organized by school coaches)
A camp/clinic held during the school year outside the season of sport must be advertised and open to anyone, not just a specific group of students. Camps/clinics may not be longer than one calendar week in length. The same group of students may not attend more than two camps/clinics organized for the purposes of skill development.

Practice after the school season
In areas of the state where middle schools have a split season for basketball we receive inquires about parents or other individuals continuing to practice with the players after the school season is over. Parents or other individuals may not “extend” the season by having members of the school team continue to practice together after the school’s competition season is over.

the rule which applies to the original post is:

KSHSAA Handbook Rule 22 (page 34): "Outside Competition" This rule applies to students in grades 7-12.

From Labor Day through the Friday before Memorial Day a student who is a member of his school team may NOT compete as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in outside competition in the same sport.

A student becomes a member of a school team when he/she first participates in a practice session.

So how do you know they wouldn't have been 4 time state champions if they were allowed to put in extra work.....Or maybe they would have been more dominant during the championship run........I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting that as evidence, that proves that middle school wrestling doesn't impede the ability to make oneself better by working out a little extra......

Your statement is much more silly than trying to make our common sense statements sound 'unfactual".....

And don't be too sure that your state champions didn't slip out and get some extra work in once in a while......

My son wrestled middle school and I do think he picked up bad habits there. Its not the coach's fault. We only have one and he had alot of other kids to work with. And, Red, its not that some kids think they are too good, it that if they are not just going into the room 'just to help coach' they are not going to get anything out of most of the practices. Changes need to be made for the good of the sport. Fortunately, our middle school season was over in time for the Park Hill tourney in early December, if not, I would never skip club wrestling for middle school, it would impede a kid's development.

And, if you let the experienced kids do both, won't they bring back experiences that will help everyone....Red, isn't that the theory you used about them coming into the middle school room and helping the new kids???

One of them was!!!

Gregg getting another entity involved helped pass this type of legislation for swimming in Kansas.

While I am sure we agree most times, I disagree here. The theory you ascribe to me is the theory of "sharing the wealth" which I do not believe in. Saying I should continuously maximize my own talents and only share them when I have to. I am saying that you do not get to have your cake and eat it too. I would fault no person that skips the middle school season because they can get more at the club level. If the coach isn't up to snuff, then don't wrestle for him. My theory is simply that there are many things that take place in a kids life between the 7th grade and the 12th grade and the humility to take the six week window of being a part of a school team, goes a long way socially and emotionally for the development of all involved. This is the theory called stewardship, which I follow, where talent should be shared, meaning sometimes sacraficing personal gain for the betterment of the whole. Sometimes that means doing things for no personal self gain but for the gain of others. I have my own kids to worry about so ultimately, I don't care what a family does. I have my own plates to clean. But....

...we must decide if the team and community are more important than the individual and not wantonly ignore rules because they do not benefit me personally. If you are an athlete (especially at a 5A school and below) that could help a team, but you are sitting out the season to focus on your specialty, then honestly, I am not impressed. And really, the way most youth athletes look to the stands for guidance instead of their coaches anyways, makes me wonder why we even bother trying to teach kids lessons that will actually help them for the rest of their lives, like self-control and respect.

So there you go, aren't you glad you asked?

and the jury is still out as to whether or not that has been a positive.

So does that prove your assertion that if we continue to not allow kids to participate in both club and MS, it will not have any affect on the kids' improvement as a wrestler? Absolutely not......why shouldn't the kids have the choice to do both? So they can judge for themselves.......There are way too many people like you in this world that think it is your job to raise MY kids. You would fit right in with most congressmen and politicians......

And someone made a point on another thread about the swimming rule, being able to do both.......how crazy is it that one sport allows it, but another does not? I'm a huge football supporter, but coaches can now work with the kids in the summer, and last I heard, wrestling coaches can NOT.

If wrestling coaches were allowed to work with kids in the offseason, how much better would the coaching be as well? We as coaches learn when we go to tourneys, camps, practice, etc. But a coach that isn't allowed to do those things will be sitting at home.

Whether that is a positive or not is irrelevent. The choice is allowed to be made by the student athlete and parent, NOT some bureaucrat..........

Again, you people act like we are asking for murder to be legalized..........

The worst that could happen would be a kid puts in extra work doing MS after school, and a club practice or open room that night, and gets burned out. I get that. Back off the next year and don't do both, or not as often.

(before you reply, I'll do it for you and Sporto, you'll say "what if the kid quits??!!" to which I say, as a parent, "that isn't an option".....I would rather not go to work today, but I will because I know what hard work gets me, and I know what sitting on my a$$ doing nothing gets me)

The best that can happen is the kid sees what extra work gets him, he improves, and learns a life lesson about hard work.
(and of course you and sporto will say something to disagree with this, but since I can't get my head far enough up my a$$ to see your point of view, I can't guess what it will be)

Because in many if not most cases it wouldn't be the kids making the decision. Instead it would be some over-zealous parent trying to re-live their childhood through their kid.


Wrestling coaches most certainly can work with their kids during the summer.

I want to apologize, just a little bit, but not really, (do I sound like XGSFDSCORDDC-Man?)for the above post, but about 10-15 years ago we were in a tshirt shop in New Orleans, and I bought a shirt that said "I'm trying to see things from your point of view, but I can't get my head that far up my a$$" and I've been waiting all this time to find a time to use it, and today was the day!!!!

While I am sure we agree most times, I disagree here. The theory you ascribe to me is the theory of "sharing the wealth" which I do not believe in. *****Somtimes I wonder whether you may be BS'ing here. There is little doubt in my mind that there some people out there that like this rule because it keeps others from improving, or tears down those that are at the top, and brings them down to their kids' level. Which is a version of sharing the wealth. ***********

Saying I should continuously maximize my own talents and only share them when I have to. I am saying that you do not get to have your cake and eat it too. I would fault no person that skips the middle school season because they can get more at the club level. If the coach isn't up to snuff, then don't wrestle for him. My theory is simply that there are many things that take place in a kids life between the 7th grade and the 12th grade and the humility to take the six week window of being a part of a school team, goes a long way socially and emotionally for the development of all involved. ********So where did anyone say "screw middle school, just do club. This is a debate on allowing kids to do both. I am saying that when my kid gets better, the TEAM gets better, so I am doing what you want to happen without you even knowing it*********

This is the theory called stewardship, which I follow, where talent should be shared, meaning sometimes sacraficing personal gain for the betterment of the whole. Sometimes that means doing things for no personal self gain but for the gain of others. I have my own kids to worry about so ultimately, I don't care what a family does. I have my own plates to clean. But.... *****A theory, that you follow, but you want to force it on the rest of us??*****

...we must decide if the team and community are more important than the individual and not wantonly ignore rules because they do not benefit me personally. If you are an athlete (especially at a 5A school and below) that could help a team, but you are sitting out the season to focus on your specialty, then honestly, I am not impressed. ****But you should be REALLY impressed with kids that do bothMS and club or open room********

And really, the way most youth athletes look to the stands for guidance instead of their coaches anyways, makes me wonder why we even bother trying to teach kids lessons that will actually help them for the rest of their lives, like self-control and respect.******Here is my take on that. I totally disagree with a kid that doesn't respect his coach, no matter how good or bad the coach is. Especially if it is an unpaid volunteer trying to help out. But if you are getting kids that are doing that, either the kid is a punk, or you stink as a coach. Look in the mirror and make sure you are doing what it takes as a coach to help make the kid better, and not just along for the ride, or for a few extra dollars on your supplemental contract. I know tons of coaches that, if broken down to an hourly wage, get paid in cents per hour, not dollars. I also know many that do the absolute minimum to keep that supplemental contract*****

So there you go, aren't you glad you asked? *****You didn't even ask me, but I gave you my 2 cents worth*****

There you go again, trying to save some kid from an overzealous parent. Until you live in their house, don't judge those parents. I would much rather have an overzealous parent, than a parent that allows their kids to sit around doing nothing, which leads to boredom, which leads to getting in trouble, which leads to dope smoking, drinking, etc........

I agree that kids should have a say in activities, but as parents, we all have to "help" them make decisions. Most wrestlers, after the first few a$$ whippings, if given the choice, would QUIT. That is the easy way out. Go play basketball so you can blame the other 4 guys when you lose.

This is wrestling, and we should hold our tougher athletes with balls enough to try this sport, to a higher standard, and instill that sort of mental and physical toughness in our kids. Not the "ok honey, you don't have to do it, I'll see if I can get someone to outlaw that other kid from being able to work out in his bsmt so they quit making the gap bigger between your spoiled butt, and his hardworking butt"

Talking about this makes me think of a topic that comes up every year. If they would just make ALL Middle School's wrestle the same season, and have an end of the year regional’s, and then a state tournament. Then let them join the club teams after that. I can’t help but to think it would make Middle School wrestling much more competitive and I believe more middle school athletes would wrestle. JMO

You need to consider the possibility that you don't represent the average parent in your views on child rearing. All I have to do to doubt that is to visit any youth sports event or read the newspaper to see that not everyone is raising their children to your standards. Sadly, more and more the government or in this case KSHSAA is put in a position of having to be a buffer between parents and what is best for their children.
All I know is this, the coaches I know and respect all want their wrestlers wrestling middle school. And, I have never heard a coach say "boy I wish that kid was getting outside instruction or competition". Frankly, if a coach is running his room correctly, I doubt any kid would have the energy for outside instruction or competition. That's not to say some parents wouldn't require it though.

It will get there. It's just going to take a little time.