This has been a struggle for me the last two years.

When my 6th grader beat the MS league champion at state I couldn't imagine how MS would help make him better. I had a talk with him and asked him what he thought. He (a 7th grader) knew that he would see tougher matches outside the MS program and elected to stay in club.

The kids still have to enjoy it and that is what he chose so I supported it.

This year as a heavier 14U the matches aren't there in kids until the freshman come back.

We had the same talk and he want to wreslte MS this year, and I again am ok with it.

With all that being said, I have talked to the school AD and he knows that we will be hitting a few open rooms and maybe even a few in and out of state tournaments. From what I have heard from them is just like Jeff is saying there isn't any full blown investigation for MS kids by KHSSA.

I don't know how much my 8th grader will develop as a wrestler in the MS program, but I do hope that (being a experienced wrestler) he becomes a leader in the room and help other new wrestlers along and makes the group as a whole better.

Some of the other parts of the state really don't get the main part of this conversation, it is that around Wichita area (Pioneer league) they schedule for MS just started and end a week before subs. The other part of the state have been done with MS since Christmas so it is a whole different scenerio.

I knew someone would twist words, and say something about skipping MS practice, to go to open room......noone said that. Extra work means just that, go to middle school practice, then hit the open room........

Drama queens.........

EVERYONE needs to push their HS AD's, principals and superintendents to have KSHSAA DEREGULATE Middle school wrestling. The rules are ridiculous and only serve to restrict kids from getting better. By rule, you cannot go to other organized practices outside of your school during the season. You cannot attend tournaments outside of the school's schedule. The MS programs serve a great purpose, to get kids introduced to wrestling who otherwise would not try it, but for kids who won't get better from those practices and events, they should be allowed to do both. There is no KSHSAA sanctioned MS state and barely ANY standards as to how the season is conducted. It needs to be deregulated as it is hurting those who want to be involved with their school and want to excel in wrestling.

All it takes is a majority of MS members pushing Mark Lentz and KSHSAA. Lets make it happen!!

Perhaps you could show us some evidence or proof of your belief it's hurting "those" kids?

Personally, I would like to see it regulated a little more to put it all on a standard schedule before Christmas. Granted, it is a short season, but it allows the kids who want to move on the opportunity to do so while developing a team mentality. But, I still think that wrestling is a team sport.....

I try to answer this one,

1) Being in a room with 30 kids that are trying to learn to wrestle for the first time for 2 1/2 months.
2) Matches against these same kids for several weeks in a row and having 1-2 competative matches in the MS season
3) Not allowed to practice in open rooms for extra work
4) Not being able to compete in national level tournaments.
5) Pioneer league season Jan-Mar (Wichita Area)
6) I have seen several kids comeback from MS with bad habits, out of shape and WAY over confident.

Just a few for now

Exactly we had 23 new kids out for MS season which is great, but if that would have been the earlier season we wouldhave gotten a good percentage out for kids. I bet there will be not even 10% of those out for kids with the late season. $35 bucks for a card with the chance of 2 matches.

My recommendation or idea is to approach this from the perspective of what is best for the kids. We are lucky in the northeastern part of the state in that we can have our cake and eat it too.

Our MS season is only 6 weeks long and is over by Christmas. Our serious wrestlers actually get to do both the middle school and majority of the kids club season (just not at the same time). The only real big tournament that they miss if doing MS is the Kick off Classic.

This helps the sport of wrestling all the way around. I have seen the number of kids that come out for wrestling in 7th grade for Middle School and then join our club after the school season is over. It also gives our experienced kids a chance to learn leadership and how to work with the other kids that will be their team members in high school. I also see wrestling as a team sport so I think that is important.

I do not understand administrators in other parts of the state that say they want what is best for the kids and then are unwilling to change to a pre-Christmas season for the Middle Schoolers. Seems to me they are only paying lip service to the idea of what is best for the kids.

Bet those same administrators think it is a good idea to have 7th and 8th graders choose between wrestling and basketball. Having a pre-Christmas season allows the kids to try both if they want.

I distinctly recall 2 yrs ago while participating in the final MS tournament in the Wichita area...2 coaches from 2 seperate teams tried to have my son disqualified and all his team points nullified because he had weighed in the night before to participate in the Park City classic that was taking place after the MS tournament. Officially the MS season was over the moment the tournament ended. It was officially declared we had broken no rules by weighing in because he hadn't stepped on a mat to participate in the classic until the MS tournament was over. Unfortunately the time it took to argue and ultimately come to a conclusion caused him to miss his first match at the classic so we simply had to scratch. What a waste of an athletes time.

Will, I agree with you 100% on the fact that the current rules for middle school wrestling needs changed.

Keeping in mind what middle school athletics is; an opportunity for kids to try different sports before high school when then they will need to commit to 1 sport each season. I would argue that even though there are rules in place KSHSAA recognizes middle school is a different animal and will not come down with the mighty hammer as they might for a high school violation. The true problem is by not having consistency across the state with respect to timing of the season while still having the rules on the books on competing outside we put our kids at a disadvantage. 80%-85% of middle school programs have an early season therefore allowing kids to join club during the meat of the season. The pioneer league along with a few others still choose to compete during Jan-Feb. This in my mind puts our kids at a huge disadvantage compared to the others across the state that are sharpening their skills against the best. In a perfect world the middle school program would provide an opportunity for kids to try it and learn while at the same time providing those that are further along an opportunity to continue to push themselves. The latter is very difficult under today’s restrictions or at least the perception of these restrictions. There are several threads on here about the pros and cons of middle school and I don’t mean to rehash them but after hours and hours last year working with our league’s ADs I have little to show for it other than frustration and disappointment. When all said and done the main reasons for not willing to change the season was scheduling. Getting teachers and administration to work the additional events during the early season. A reason I will never understand especially considering that we agreed on we should be doing what’s best for our kids.

Sporto, in addition to Tracy’s very valid reasons. I will give you one more. My son. After years of coaching and supporting my son in his decision to wrestle middle school for the last two years I can tell you for a fact his skills not only didn’t improve he went backwards. This isn’t a knock on the coaches but a knock on the system. With that said, my son benefited from many other things that middle school team has to offer and think that was great. It’s just a shame that we can’t have the best of both worlds especially when the solution seems so easy. Until then I would encourage everyone to take advantage of any opportunity to better themselves. If you have concerns regarding open rooms call Mark Lentz, he was very helpful in answering my questions last year.

Those were opinions, not hard facts supported in any way.



Did he tell you to advise middle schoolers to violate KSHSAA rules???

Sporto, perhaps you can provide "proof or evidence" that the current rules are best for our kids. Please enlighten us!

As far as your other question. Call Mark and ask him!

Unfortunately rules are rules. You don't get to follow the rules you like and disregard the rules you don't. This is the problem with some of our youth. If parents don't follow rules and direction we can't expect our children to either.

I provided my evidence in my original post. Those are hard facts based on results. I didn't say the current system was "best", rather I said wrestling middle school didn't impede our wrestlers progress or development.

I'm confused? Is this the post you are referencing?

1) Being in a room with 30 kids that are trying to learn to wrestle for the first time for 2 1/2 months.
FACT: the MS program has 23 new kids to wrestling this year where my son in attending.

2) Matches against these same kids for several weeks in a row and having 1-2 competative matches in the MS season
Maybe/Maybe Not Previous years indicate that this is the case, Undefeated MS wrestlers not making it out of subs and going 0-2, I will follow up with how many 1st year wreslters my boy faces this year.

3) Not allowed to practice in open rooms for extra work
Fact: It isn't allowed by rules, if you are saying open room and extra work hasn't been proven to improve kids well I guess you have your own set of issues.

4) Not being able to compete in national level tournaments.
Fact: Not allowed to wrestle outside tournament, again if high competition doesn't improve the wrestler again other issues.

5) Pioneer league season Jan-Mar (Wichita Area)
Fact: it run from Jan 3 through March 1st

6) I have seen several kids comeback from MS with bad habits, out of shape and WAY over confident.
Fact: Again a kid telling me he was 15-0 in MS and telling me he was going to be a state placer easy, not make it out of subs. I have seen two kid comeback headlocking fools, locking hands on top. I guess if you dispute that I haven't seen this then it may not be fact, but I base it soley on the MS.

http://www.trackwrestling.com/tw/members...;twId=111444009

Sportsfan02,

The fact the we are high-jacking the HS tread to discuss this ought to give you a clue. It doesn't even rate it's own forum on this site. Nobody cares about MS wrestling in KS. The only people who seem to really care is the parents. KSHSAA, apparently cares enough to control MS wrestlers but doesn't offer them much for it.

My son whom I have posted his track wrestling profile above is one of those kids this system hurts. He loves the idea of being on a team and was thrilled to be a part of his Middle School team and the AAU Team that went to Iowa last season. He also was thrilled to be on the FS/GR team in Indiana last season. He was also on a team this season at Park Hill Duels. So being on a team is not an issue.

The problem stems from not having anyone to practice with and or wrestle with at local Tournaments. He practices with adults exclusively now since nobody else will touch him. We get turned down at tournaments since he is big and too good to wrestle with. Had to back out of VC tournament this last weekend as nobody would wrestle him. Can't move up an age group @14U and can't move up a weight group when your HWT. Our option is to wrestle out of state till the HS boys get done with state in about 2 months. I do what I can but it is expensive to wrestle out of state.

The choice to wrestle MS is one that basically puts his wrestling progress at a standstill. He will have very few matches in MS. If he gets 10 this year I will be surprised. He basically schooled the HWT class at Pioneer League Tournament as a 7th grader. However, the HS boys he will have to wrestle at state will have had over 20 matches by that time.

It would be more beneficial for him to be able to wrestle MS during the week and be able to catch a few National tournaments on the weekends when possible. Most other states are not quite so controlling and do allow this. My OK wrestling friends think we are retarded for doing this to the kids. They even allow the HS wrestlers some options to wrestle major national tournaments while in season.

If you do take the time to look at his Track page listed above, note the number of hits he has on his page. People are watching him and his progress. Some of those people will likely be colleges looking for a good HWT. Tell me that not having real options is not hurting him.

Thanks, Troy Fowler

The rule is just stupid. If a wrestler is not missing MS practice or tournaments, then It should not be a problem. If parents have a skilled wrestler he should be allowed to wrestle & practice anywhere they want. My youngest son wrestled MS this year & we followed the rule. I would not judge or blow the whistle on any one breaking this rule. What is the main reason for this rule? Anyone know?

Maybe we should not allow any middle schoolers to wrestle kids series, do open rooms, OR work out in their bsmt with their friends or brothers. And since there are a couple of different seasons, we probably should not let any middle schoolers to wrestle anything except middle school during their season, and once their season is over, they shouldn't be allowed to practice with their club team during the other schools' season as well, because there is a good chance that they will improve, and that isn't fair to the middle schoolers that have a different season. And kids that are motivated to put in extra work need to be indoctrinated properly, so that they can grow up to be worthless, government dependent idiots that vote for someone like our current president and his liberal entitlement society friends........Let's cut practice down to an hour per day, maybe two days a week. And let's make sure that we don't keep score at tourneys, so none of the kids gets discouraged.

This was a question about HS & MS kids so I don't think it was high jacked.I guess my question should have been; does an open room constitute an organized practice and therefor prohibit HS & MS kids from going to them.