I think that was the point he was trying to make. There have been a lot more 5A and 6A coaches publicly criticizing the split (including one in my town). I don't understand why. They don't have a dog in the fight. And for those of you in 5A and 6A who talk about wanting less classes, we had our chance to vote for 48 in each class. Or maybe the coaches didn't really get a vote ( which sounds like was the case for the wrestling coaches in 4A ((see Doug Vander Linden's post above)).

Each school administrator was provided an opportunity to vote by sport. (I am not sure if that vote opportunity came from KSHSAA or the league that presented the proposal).

Our school, for instance, voted no on the proposal in every sport. But other schools may have voted in favor for some sports, against for other sports.

That is when the proposal was changed to only include football, basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball.

Kit -

On Page #6 of the PDF it says that a SURVEY was done. Not a VOTE. It also said that it was sent to principals. Wrestling was 30-24 with 10 principals not responding.

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2013-04/229572640-26151647.pdf

Also, it does not say in the proposal that the principals voted it down. Read the line on PDF Page #5 where it reads "Feedback on Wrestling (underlined) Coaches: Leave as one division".

It does not say that the Principals (underlined) did not want it. It does not say the ADs (underlined) did not want it. It does not say the KSHSAA executives (underlined) did not want it. It says that our peers (yes I am 3A, but we all our a few kids up or down from being 3A, 4A or 5A) did NOT want this!

Where is the disconnect here?

Where is Coach Jackson from Holton with his insight and other coaches from the Big 7 league that brought it forward. Maybe the survey (or straw poll, a coin flip, a rock-paper-scissor contest) was of the WRESTLING (underlined) Coaches in the BIG 7 League?

A survey of 64 PRINCIPALS does not indicate the WISHES OF THE 62 TO 63 WRESTLING Coaches in Class 4A. I've talked to many of these 4A coaches that were never asked by their principals. Can we see the detailed survey results?

If wrestling is NOT a TEAM Sport lets get rid of duals and State TEAM Titles. You compete individually as part of a TEAM! I think it was wrong that wrestling was left out of the split.

The answer now is "not who is to blame?" The answer is to decide as leaders in our sport if we are going to do something about it, if as a group we feel there has been a mistake made.

Getting off my soap box gently, I am getting older...
Doug Vander Linden
Burlington

This is interesting. Agreed Doug.

This proposal should have involved much more discussion & input opportunities and then voted on afterwards. With opportunities to discuss, hear/express pros & cons.

Wrestling needs to do that extensively within our coaches group to see what our collective stance on the proposal is. This info can/should then be presented to the KSHSAA.

I can begin working on a questionairre.

The survey should include two groups (all coaches, and 4A coaches - which is difficult in that some schools bounce around in classifications).

To help everyone determine where their stance is on it, this forum can be used for discussion leading up to deadline of survey being submitted.

Kit -

I like what you are thinking about a formal coaches survey. I have a couple of tools that we have used in KWCA this past year where we can create a "close" online survey. We did it for some voting needs in one of the divisions this year, and it worked well and was secure.

We can also use KWCA information resources to help. The Fall Clinic is a great place for a discussion like this, and it will be right after the 2013-14 Classifications have been announced which will help us get the right group of coaches on board for Class 4A (big/small) and other classes.

I am ready to be part of the solution.....
Doug

Kit and Doug,

I completely agree with everything you guys just said. You guys are simply two of the best. I get kind of defensive about any topic where wrestling is not treated fairly. And to me this split treats our sport like we are not as important as basketball or football. Like Kit said, splitting some sports and not others is a horrible idea. Good luck with the survey.

I'm torn. I don't think I like a 4A split. I think Regionals would be a way too small.

But I don't think other sports split & wrestling not helps us. Hard enough as it is to build programs, get kids out, etc., let alone battling the added issue of so many other sports, especially our winter counterpart, now advancing to state lot more easily and often.

I feel a division of 40 in 6A, 40 in 5A, 48 in 4A is best solution. But it is a major proposal. Still, it makes the most sense to me.

Why not 48, 64, and the rest? We only need two state tournaments but lets at least move in the right direction and get to three.

The point MANY of you are missing is that the split is really about the number of schools but the total number of students. Another point, our wrestling state tournaments are individual state tournaments. We crown a state champ but dual state would be the BEST way to determine the best TEAM. Any of you who think KS should crown 5 state champions, individually, in wrestling, are completely out of your collective minds. Four is way too many to begin with. They only crown three in Wisconsin and they have twice the population we have. We can go on and on with examples. I am not sure ANY other state crowns five individual champions.

I think Arizona does. I will say that I think the New England states do it right, if you have more then one state tournament you then go to grand state, from grand state you go on to take on the rest of New Englands best (I believe 6 states combine for that in a 24 man Grand Region Championships. Top 4 in each state go (Grand State top 4 if you have more then 1 division)

But you're missing the point of this Discussion post. We all would like a one class state championship but it's not going to happen. It seems to me that 4A took the only option they felt was left. But if you read the article in the Capital Journal the principles said they hoped this would lead to future changes in the classes. Its not about finding an easier road to a state championship. They wanted 48 in each class but 5A and 6A wouldn't vote for that. I would like to see more competition in 6A, but thats just me. So if this 4A split results in future changes I'm all for it.

Do I have a right to give my opinion publicly? Have I climbed a big enough hill to have an opinion on what I think is best for wrestling in the state of Kansas. 5 classes would sink our sport. 4 classes is too many. 3 is really too many but it is what it is. 2 would be perfect.

Just my opinion from a small hill I guess

The REAL culprit here? Shrinking rural areas. We need to consolidate counties and close schools. We are fiscally choking ourselves to death and NOT giving ALL of our kids adequate education and extracurricular opportunities. The 105 county system was created when we traveled by horse. Does anyone still go to the county seat in a wagon? Cmon! We don't need 105 county clerks! If the consolidation of counties and schools kills towns then let them die! Most of these rural areas are already HIGHLY subsidized through government payments to agriculture producers not to mention the free and reduced lunch programs, etc. I am sure this will piss some folks off but if your business can't make it on its own then neither should a town. I am sick and tired of the redistribution of wealth via property taxes and the increasing number of administrators and politicians to run our schools. No one on here wants to talk about the cost because they just ask for a budget increase to cover them.

The guy on here saying to close schools is one who does NOT even support public schools. This is kind of ironic.

Obviously you are clueless. I support public schools in five counties and I have ZERO kids attending them. I support them and don't use them so that makes me a bad guy? If we had a vouchering system or a tax credit for attending private school then you might have a point. There is no irony only stupidity.

Will, anytime you use a product or service provided by the private or public sectors that have employees who used the public education system, you are benefiting from it. But, yes, you have some good points, and again, another thread hi-jacked!!!

On the topic, I think it is a sad commentary on today's youth that posters imply that the only way to build a program is to make it easier for the wrestlers to succeed, and we are not talking about them, the wrestles, working hard.

Also, a lot of kids have worked real hard to get 5/6th in their respective state tourneys. Adding another class would truly cheapen their accomplishments.

Again, 5A and 6A only have 32 teams. You are implying because 4A wants to go to 32 teams they want it easier. Are you saying that in 6A it is easier for the wrestlers to succeed, and that we don't work hard?

By going to 32 teams it will be easier, there is no getting around it. How can you suggest that it won't be?

Anytime you send your kid(s) to a private school the public school benefits as they still receive your funding but you do not use the FULL SERVICES you would be entitled to.

KSHSAA is becoming a joke. 8 state champs in football. Wow. Two in 8 man?? How can their be that much disparity between the smallest and largest 8 man school?? The whole thing is so watered down and many are still missing the point that the school count for each classification is not just based on the number of schools but on total enrollment.

2012 KSHSAA Enrollments
6A 53383 32 Schools
5A 31232 32 Schools
4A 28657 64 Schools
321 28133 227 Schools

While the process by which the decision was made on which sports to split was flawed, rather than look at it as some sort of slight, I prefer to see it as a badge of honor for wrestling.

I agree. Another classification in wrestling would have been flat out embarrassing.