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 Re: Observations
[Re: Cowbuff]
#223633
01/22/14 02:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 63
Cowbuff
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wait u edit that now HMMMMMMMM.........
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Re: Observations
[Re: GNR]
#223643
01/22/14 01:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 750
L.Geyer
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I agree that we DO need riding time in highschool. It would make it more exciting, as the bottom wrestler is not going to stall, because he does not want to give up that point, and the top guy is going to work hard on top to stay in position, which is what most coaches try to teach while riding on top. It would also prepare our college bound wrestlers for what is to come at the next level.
Riding time would take some of the missed stalling calls away. We all know that most officals call stalling different, and it seems like every match someone is yelling "STALLING".
Do any other states have riding time in highschool?
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Re: Observations
[Re: L.Geyer]
#223644
01/22/14 01:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 844
WillyM
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3 or 4 years ago I saw Ryne Cokeley reverse a match and win the match in the last 1 or 2 seconds. I saw Bo Pursel do do the same thing in the last couple of seconds. In this year's BOBCAT I saw Tagen Lambotte reverse the match at the last second and beat Issac Dulgarian. These were/are historic matches that wrestlers and fans will remember and talk about for years. No one will remember or care that Johnny Nobody beat Joey Noname by riding points. What would have been the results if RC, or Bo, or Tagen had decided to just lay on the mat and let their opponents build riding points..............I forgot, what was their names again!!!!! Maybe we can go watch a quilting bee--one of the old ladies might stick her finger with a needle and we may get to see some blood----now wont that be exciting?????
Riding is "maintaining" a position---not "improving" a position. Boring-Boring-boring!
Last edited by WillyM; 01/22/14 01:29 PM.
Bill Mason Lansing
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Re: Observations
[Re: WillyM]
#223646
01/22/14 01:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 750
L.Geyer
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The wrestlers you mentioned are some of Kansas best wrestlers both past and current, and yes riding time may not have been a factor in these matches do to these wrestlers no willing to let it happen. If I was to guess knowing the style of these elite wrestlers you mentioned there would have been no riding time accumulated anyway.
On the other hand I have seen some great wrestlers get beat, because they were down by 1 or 2 points going into the 3rd period, and the bottom guy laid there, because he knew he had a stalling warning and a point to spare. with riding time there would not have been a point to spare, because 1 point for stalling, and 1 point for riding time.
Last edited by L.Geyer; 01/22/14 01:35 PM. Reason: spelling mistakes :)
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Re: Observations
[Re: L.Geyer]
#223649
01/22/14 01:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 172
Wrestlin Scholar
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I have to agree with Willy on the riding time (but not on soccer card). I see so many guys get on top that just maintain postition so the bottom guy doesn't score. IMO 90% of stalling is on the top man when in referees postion. With riding time, you're promoting the top man to just hang on and stall. We want to create action for the sport, not less action. Why do people think the bottom man wants to stay on bottom. If my kids are on bottom, they're more likely to get pinned, put in a near fall, use more energy than the top man because he has his weight on him and loose opportunity to score an escape or reversal.
On college wrestling, to you think riding time makes it better. To the general fan, its boring seeing a guy just ride for two minutes. Wrestling is more exciting on the feet. Also this would be an administrative nightmare. Do ADs or coaches want to find and maybe pay an additional competent person to run the riding time clock. You would have to find that person for every Varsity and JV match. Also would be an additional distraction for the ref to make sure the riding time clock is going the right direction. I've wrestled in college and even ran table on the clock, and the clock easily gets screwed up. I think college wrestling needs to get rid of the riding time clock.
"If pro is the opposite on con, then the opposite of progress is congress"
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Re: Observations
[Re: L.Geyer]
#223651
01/22/14 01:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 844
WillyM
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Sorry--have to disagree. Riding time in HS wrestling will kill it. Don't have a NHSFed book but don't think riding time is mentioned in the book. Might be, but don't think riding time is used in any state HS wrestling. Consensus must be "NO RIDING TIME"!
Warnings and stalls force wrestlers to move, to take risks. Risks open the match to countermoves and reversals. Quicker and more warnings and stall are the answer. And if a COACH wants to argue with the ref over a warning or a stall, give the coach a warning; if the arguing, complaining or pleading continues: RED CARD ejection.
Bill Mason Lansing
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Re: Observations
[Re: Wrestlin Scholar]
#223653
01/22/14 01:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 844
WillyM
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I have to agree with Willy on the riding time (but not on soccer card). I see so many guys get on top that just maintain postition so the bottom guy doesn't score. IMO 90% of stalling is on the top man when in referees postion. With riding time, you're promoting the top man to just hang on and stall. We want to create action for the sport, not less action. Why do people think the bottom man wants to stay on bottom. If my kids are on bottom, they're more likely to get pinned, put in a near fall, use more energy than the top man because he has his weight on him and loose opportunity to score an escape or reversal.
On college wrestling, to you think riding time makes it better. To the general fan, its boring seeing a guy just ride for two minutes. Wrestling is more exciting on the feet. Also this would be an administrative nightmare. Do ADs or coaches want to find and maybe pay an additional competent person to run the riding time clock. You would have to find that person for every Varsity and JV match. Also would be an additional distraction for the ref to make sure the riding time clock is going the right direction. I've wrestled in college and even ran table on the clock, and the clock easily gets screwed up. I think college wrestling needs to get rid of the riding time clock. THANKS. Some one finally agrees with me. And, don't get hung up on the RED CARD--its a term and I use it to tug Cokeley's chain. Bill Mason
Last edited by WillyM; 01/22/14 02:28 PM.
Bill Mason Lansing
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Re: Observations
[Re: L.Geyer]
#223654
01/22/14 01:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 47
klein
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Few Things:
Why would you ride someone for 2 min in the 3rd and lose by 1 or 2? cut him right away.
I am a fan of riding time in college, but riding time would never work in high school. Half the college tournaments ran can't even keep track of riding time w/out problems and we would expect high school to make it happen? Riding time makes things too complicated for the average fan / wrestlers / volunteers.
I would love college out of bounds rules to apply. This is something we could actually make happen. Sometimes there is not room outside of the mat. If a wrestler is into the mat table / on the hardwood - stop the match. But if they can still wrestle, why not.
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Re: Observations
[Re: Cokeley]
#223655
01/22/14 01:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 172
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[/quote]
I personally would like to see stalling at the minimum and fleeing in some cases when the offensive wrestler runs the defensive wrestler out of bounds to get a fresh start on top or to avoid getting stalling called for not attempting to return the defensive wrestler to the mat. It gets called about 1% of the time! Tell me what defensive wrestler is running out of bounds so he has to start all over on his hands and knees again??? [/quote]
I saw my first fleeing the mat call called last night of the season and I've seen a lot of wrestling this year. This is never called. Note its technically fleeing the mat when the bottom man stands up and the top man who is still in control with a a body lock around, and the top man pushes the bottom man out of bounds. This happens so much. Referees for whatever reason are scared to call fleeing the mat. Most people don't know that college wrestling eliminated the fleeing the mat rule this year. I guess it wasn't called enough and such a subjective call that freaks coaches out, they decided just to get rid of it.
Last edited by fan of the sport; 01/22/14 02:16 PM.
"If pro is the opposite on con, then the opposite of progress is congress"
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Re: Observations
[Re: Wrestlin Scholar]
#223681
01/22/14 06:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,327
Cokeley
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I get the technical issues with riding time but those are WAY easier to fix than the inconsistency and incompetency I see by the men in stripes blowing the whistle. I have seen kids back up for 5 minutes and never get the FIST but Saturday night I saw the fist go up twice in less than 15 seconds without ANY change in position. It is not stalling when two wrestlers are tied up and one is pushing the other backwards. Stalemate it and see who backs up on the restart. Stalling is FAR too subjective in my opinion. Any official who has never wrestled has NO clue how to apply this rule.
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Observations
[Re: klein]
#223682
01/22/14 06:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 750
L.Geyer
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The reason you dont cut him is because the wrestler I am referring to on top has the ability to tilt almost anyone in the Nation at the highschool level. (many know who I am talking about). The bottom wrestler laid with arms and legs spread wide to prevent from being tilted the entire 3rd period. Riding time would have prevented this, and made the bottom guy move.
This particular incident happend a couple of years ago, but this is just one of many incidents this happens.
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Re: Observations
[Re: WillyM]
#223684
01/22/14 06:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,327
Cokeley
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3 or 4 years ago I saw Ryne Cokeley reverse a match and win the match in the last 1 or 2 seconds. I saw Bo Pursel do do the same thing in the last couple of seconds. In this year's BOBCAT I saw Tagen Lambotte reverse the match at the last second and beat Issac Dulgarian. These were/are historic matches that wrestlers and fans will remember and talk about for years. No one will remember or care that Johnny Nobody beat Joey Noname by riding points. What would have been the results if RC, or Bo, or Tagen had decided to just lay on the mat and let their opponents build riding points..............I forgot, what was their names again!!!!! Maybe we can go watch a quilting bee--one of the old ladies might stick her finger with a needle and we may get to see some blood----now wont that be exciting?????
Riding is "maintaining" a position---not "improving" a position. Boring-Boring-boring! I remember BO's match. Ryne never trailed in the 3rd and won at the Bobcat. He trailed the whole match and lost to CJ Napier where NO second stalling was made by Mr. Conover.
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Observations
[Re: Cokeley]
#223698
01/22/14 08:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 172
Wrestlin Scholar
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I get the technical issues with riding time but those are WAY easier to fix than the inconsistency and incompetency I see by the men in stripes blowing the whistle. I have seen kids back up for 5 minutes and never get the FIST but Saturday night I saw the fist go up twice in less than 15 seconds without ANY change in position. It is not stalling when two wrestlers are tied up and one is pushing the other backwards. Stalemate it and see who backs up on the restart. Stalling is FAR too subjective in my opinion. Any official who has never wrestled has NO clue how to apply this rule. Cokely, But how will implementing riding change stalling? I think riding time promotes more stalling. Out of all the positions currently (Neutral, Top or Bottom), which postion has the most incentive to stall. Its top of course, and you're going to reward them for taking less risks and to just hold on. Wrestlers will attempt less pinning combinations because it would be more risky if they and lost the bottom wrestler. You will have more fans and coaches yelling stalling on top. I agree there is a total inconsistency on stalling calls. I blame it partially on training of the referees. When I reffed in Kansas, you only had to pass a test and go to to a meeting in a classroom to get a license. And in the meetings, there was no emphasis on stalling. I did referee in the St Louis Area, and they had more meetings and had a training class on the mat put on by the officials association and specific stalling situations were addressed. The head official also always spoke about of consistency on stalling and worked a lot with younger refs. Also they had a official who was paid to observe referees and gave evaluations. Also, I think I've only ever met one referee that never wrestled and that was a woman. She was also a good ref.
Last edited by fan of the sport; 01/22/14 08:22 PM.
"If pro is the opposite on con, then the opposite of progress is congress"
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Re: Observations
[Re: Cokeley]
#223699
01/22/14 08:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 844
WillyM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 844 |
3 or 4 years ago I saw Ryne Cokeley reverse a match and win the match in the last 1 or 2 seconds. I saw Bo Pursel do do the same thing in the last couple of seconds. In this year's BOBCAT I saw Tagen Lambotte reverse the match at the last second and beat Issac Dulgarian. These were/are historic matches that wrestlers and fans will remember and talk about for years. No one will remember or care that Johnny Nobody beat Joey Noname by riding points. What would have been the results if RC, or Bo, or Tagen had decided to just lay on the mat and let their opponents build riding points..............I forgot, what was their names again!!!!! Maybe we can go watch a quilting bee--one of the old ladies might stick her finger with a needle and we may get to see some blood----now wont that be exciting?????
Riding is "maintaining" a position---not "improving" a position. Boring-Boring-boring! I remember BO's match. Ryne never trailed in the 3rd and won at the Bobcat. He trailed the whole match and lost to CJ Napier where NO second stalling was made by Mr. Conover. Don't think RC's win was at the BobCat-maybe-nor was BO's (not real sure about BO's win and the BobCat ). I know all three endings happened so fast it was difficult to see--needed a video---I still haven't seen a replay of Lambrott and Dulgarian.
Last edited by WillyM; 01/22/14 08:22 PM.
Bill Mason Lansing
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Re: Observations
[Re: WillyM]
#223725
01/23/14 03:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 497
Travis Phippen
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Willy you can watch the replay at 810varsity.com
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