I have not herd kids saying they do not want to go wrestle. I do hear a bunch of parents saying the season is to long.We have a big bunch of kids every year that do not want to go to state. Not because the season is to long ,it is the thought of not winning a match.I hear it every year. To many people put the win in front of the learn.

I have read most of these posts and I talked to a lot of coaches this weekend in Salina. I think we all want more participation, better competition, better development of KS kids to compete on a national level and a shorter season of some kind.

The two things I want added to the discussion are this:

1. Middle School Wrestling needs to have the same season for all kids. I would prefer early (Nov-Mid December)allowing all the middle school kids to compete for the majority of the kids season. (however long we make it) We should also allow MS teams to buy a KS Kids card for all team members, for one price, just like we do for HS teams. Hoping more kids would continue right into the kids season.

2. There are already opportunities to wrestle EVERY Saturday and Sunday, why not introduce some Freestyle & Greco tournament's in the middle of the season on Sundays. This would allow more kids to try FS & GR during the season. You could also do a split session with 6/8/10 wrestling Folkstyle on Sat AM and FS/GR on Sat. PM, then wrestle 12 & 14 U on Sunday Folkstyle AM and FS/GR PM.

Like it or not, the kids who wrestle FS& GR are better all around wrestlers. We need to introduce more kids to the style to improve on the national level.

Now we're getting somewhere! FS/GR Tournaments during the middle of the season should definitely be included in the survey.

Aligning the MS wrestling season all across the state seems like a "no-brainer"...

My wife will be thrilled to hear we are gonna be gone on Sunday as well.........

I do like the idea of FS GR during folkstyle. And yes, it bewilders me why all of the middle school programs don't wrestle at the same time. I think they would be forced to adhere to USAWKS' schedule if we implement these season scheduling changes.

Doug,

"Maybe so" is all I can say to your comment about the middle schools shifting their seasons. But I wouldn’t count on it. So if we move our schedule around in such a way that is in conflict with some middle school seasons we will in effect be making the kids/parents choose one or the other. Depending on those choices the schools options on how to react are wide ranging.

1) They could choose to compete with us for the athletes and they could be upset that we are competing with them. Whatever kids they are successful retaining will in effect drive down our numbers.
2) If we are successful in getting kids to wrestle club instead of for Middle School teams it could lead to some Middle School programs being eliminated due to lack of participation. This would in effect eliminate some kid’s from the HS pipeline that do not have the means compete at the club level (or just don’t want to).
3) They could move there season.

Of the three things that could happen, two of them are not good for USAWKS participation numbers and/or could negatively impact getting kids exposed to wrestling in the 2-3 formative years before they get into the HS room.

The main point of this post is to say we should go into any changes with our eyes wide open.

There are numerous reasons that the MS seasons are when they are (even if we don't agree with these reasons or the logic behind them we need to understand what they are)....some include;

1) Facilities availability (sharing facilities with other programs)
2) Coach availability (sharing coaches with other programs)
3) Desire of the local communities

If the Middle School schedule was prime to change then change would happen with our without outside pressure. I don’t think it’s safe to assume that "anything" we do will “force” the Middle School Leagues to do anything and we need to be prepared to deal with the consequences of our actions.

Mark Stanley

Great points Mark. I don't think people understand that many administrators and board members at schools DON'T even care one little bit about when the kids wrestling season ends. I know the school district we are in basketball is #1 and wrestling is a mere afterthought.

If they don't change the MS season, I believe the top wrestlers will break with our series, and the others will probably stick with MS. I see no problem with that. In fact we may have more OVERALL participation. Knowing the studs will not be tying them into a pretzel, we may get more MS participation, which will keep those kids out until they mature and are able match testosterone levels with the kids that have been tough from a younger age.

I don't want to shut down middle school wrestling. I want more kids wrestling. I think our plan, in the long haul, after everyone gets over the resistance to any change, will improve overall numbers. And it will get the largest group of cardholders, 6U, into the same series as the rest of the kids. I don't put a huge amount of emphasis on winning at 6U, but I think they should be a part of our series.

You wouldn't have heard me say that several years ago, so if a bullheaded SOB like me can change his tune and accept changes, anyone can...

TRUE!

1. Middle School Wrestling needs to have the same season for all kids. I would prefer early (Nov-Mid December)allowing all the middle school kids to compete for the majority of the kids season. (however long we make it) We should also allow MS teams to buy a KS Kids card for all team members, for one price, just like we do for HS teams. Hoping more kids would continue right into the kids season.[/quote]

AS A KIDS CLUB/JR. HIGH/HIGH SCHOOL COACH I FIRMLY BELIEVE JR. HIGH REFORM IS A TOP PRIORITY.....IT'S A JOKE RIGHT NOW. All schools should be on the same schedule and we should have a state tournament that holds some clout!



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The middle school problem is not one that USAWKS can tackle. Our board has ZERO say or influence on the policies and practices of the KSHSAA. A proposal can be written to structure the above mentioned thoughts. This proposal would then need the sponsorship of an Athletic Director from a member school and to really carry some weight an AD that is a league commissioner. I really don't believe our administrators have any idea how unorganized middle school wrestling is. I really have no idea why KSHSAA cares if kids do both as there exists no qualifying series to crown a KSHSAA Middle School state champion. Weight classes, if they exist, are loosely established in many of the leagues. Some leagues don't keep team score at all and most offer almost no weekend tournaments. Why would any administrator care if kids were doing both?

I have long believed what Doug has stated. If we build it the best will join us. It might have the impact he suggested as many of the MS wrestlers are dabbling or trying it because it is FREE.

My suggestion... Call your local AD! Organize your ideas and go after your school administrators to let them know YOU care.

I've got a question. It's been stated previously that 65% of wrestlers don't compete in the state series. Is this 65% of all wrestlers, or is it 65% of the wrestlers allowed to compete in the state series? 6 & Under currently isn't a division when it comes to State, so basically the entire division doesn't wrestle the State Series except for those few that choose to jump up to 8 & Under. That would obviously skew those numbers greatly if you automatically take out an entire division.

What is the percentage of 8 year old's not competing in the state tournament series? How about 10's, 12's and 14's? I haven't been able to find it on the website, but years ago they used to post the number of card registrations for each age division on the site. If anybody can find that, can you point me in the right direction.

Another question. Missouri held their USA State tournament last year the same weekend we held ours. Does anybody know whether they have the same drop in number of card holders compared to the wrestlers participating in their state series?

I have followed this thread and have been considering my thoughts carefully. I realize I don't have all the information about dates, other events, and conflicts of scheduling. with that being said I believe moving the state series before spring break is a fantastic idea. But to move it 6 or 7 weeks to the begging of February seems to only accommodate baseball. (which 8 and 10 year olds be pleasured by league teams in January is asinine. MLB don't even start tell April,3) And will encroach on football, which is a more compatible sport with wrestling.
As far as adding 6U to state, and growth of participation I believe they are related. I am not a statistician numbers guru but I have been looking at open novice tournaments on Track and just reading # in each division there seems to be a pattern of decline in the transition between 6U and 8U open. Just because a 5 or 6 year old can knock some one down an lay on them and have success is not turning into a skillset to even be an average wrestler at 7 and 8. Your always going to loose kids but the percentage is to high. It looks like we probably loose 50% of 6U kids and of those 50% that stay we probably loose 30% at 8U because they didn't have success with the knock down and flop. I think USA Wrestling is right to not recognize a 6U .

I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to post on this thread. There are several things that have been brought up that were not talked about by the review committee. I am keeping track of each of the ideas/topics that are being brought up so we can talk about them at our next meeting.

I also want to express that we are doing all we can to make the work of this committee as open and transparent as we can. In the end, there will simply be a set of ideas that will be presented to the State Body and it will be up to the State Body what to accept and what to decline.

Thanks for the input, thoughts, and ideas. Please keep them coming.

Matt Treaster

Thanks for all your hard work and time!

Here's a couple of proposals. Feel free to pick it apart.

1) Eliminate HS division in state series. The experiment to create a grand state has failed. Time to either eliminate HS division all together or bring back the 16 & Under division. I always thought the 16 & Unders were needed to give extra mat time to those from HS that needed it, but I'm not opposed to eliminating it altogether either. HS wrestlers can start focusing on Freestyle/Greco right after HS State, which gives them an extra month of preparation. They can throw in a another month of the regional training centers or have some clinics on the weekends if they don't want to have tournaments because of the low numbers with this extra month.

2) Change the weight classes in the age divisions to every 5 lbs. instead of every 3 or 4, along with the weight jumps as they are now in the bigger weight classes. This should increase the competition level in the brackets. This is the whole steel sharpens steel analogy, which should help when it comes to how we fair against other states at national/regional tournaments in the long run.

3) Add 6 & Unders to state series. If we were to implement the second part, it would eliminate 11 weight classes from the state tournament by my count. With the reduction in weight classes we could add the 6 & Unders division in 5 lb increments even if we decided to keep the HS division or bring back the 16 & Unders.

4) Have districts the week after HS State, and State the following weekend. We'd eliminate a couple weeks off the season, allow those who would like to go to the NCAA's the ability to do so, give every family in the state their spring break back, and not eliminate half of the current season as the current proposal being floated does. This does create an issue for MS kids wrestling the late season. I guess they would have to decide which is more important that last week of the MS
season; their conference tournament or the state tournament.

5) Take a good hard look at a proposal offered by Wichita when it comes to the state tournament. I know that it's been said it would cost the state more to host the tournament in Wichita than Topeka when it last came up for bid. Since it's already been proposed to increase the cost of the entry fee for state, could
the additional expense of the Wichita location be offset by the increase in entry fee for the tournament? The state would make the same amount of money, and it might be cheaper for a family if the entry fee to state is double but they end up saving $50 to $80 or whatever on hotel costs.

OK rzimmerman. The invite is accepted. Point 1. According to who, you? You have no credibility other then getting over obviously on kansas wrestling with your kids club tournament for years!! There have been some brutall brackets at the kids state tournament in the high school division. Point 2. Change to 5 pounds for what age class and up to what weight??? Very vague. Point 3 and 4 I agree. Point 5, what wrestler or wrestler family doesn't go to State due to venue? They are going to go regardless. The only tournament that gets over more on kansas wrestlers then State at Topeka is the Tournament of Champions in Salina. There feel bether, thanks for the invite.

Patrick, I'm not saying that there aren't good wrestlers or brutal brackets in the HS division at State. That wasn't what my point was intending to convey, and if it was misunderstood then I owe an apology.

When they went from the 16 & Under to the HS division, the idea was to create a "grand state" with that would create a bracket with the top placers from each of the high school classifications. This might have happened in some brackets over the years, but for the most part it hasn't.

As far as the 5th point, right now the 6, 8, and 10 age groups have weight classes every 3 lbs. The 12 & Under class is for a large portion of it weight classes every 4 lbs. If we make the weight classes every 5 lbs for those age groups, it would 1) make for tougher brackets throughout the season and 2) would free up some weight classes at State to add the 6's even if it was decided to keep the HS or 16 & Under division.

You're right, I don't think anybody is going to skip the state tournament due to the venue, or because it is in Topeka, or because the cost of hotel rooms. Several of the previous post brought up saving parents money for the weekend of state due to the hotel prices in Topeka as one of the things they were considering in this. This was merely another thing for them to consider when deciding the next contract. I'm guessing that for anybody staying in a hotel that weekend, they wouldn't mind saving a little money if they can.

The State Series Review Committee met during the 6U and Elementary Dual State Tournament in Salina on February 28. Present at the meeting were: Jonathan Whisnant, Mark Stanley, Tracy Peterson, Will Cokeley, Zach Campbell, Matt Treaster, Richard Salyer, Doug Eck, Daniel Reiling, and Chad Beeson.

The committee started out by reviewing what had taken place and was discussed at the prior meeting on January 24, 2016. We then discussed our focus point of "What is Best for Kids?". an article from the National Wrestling Coaches Association, Importance of Recover by Dennis Johnson, EdD, and the new Athlete Development Model (ADM)from USA Wrestling was reviewed. The committee then went through the suggestions/input which had been made by members through email or the talk forum.

It was decided that the next step would be to send out the survey to the membership on the state series and possible changes. Once the surevy was returned, the committee would then review the results at its next meeting. No meeting date was set pending the survey.

Thanks,
Matt Treaster
Folkstyle Director
USAW-Kansas

There are great ideas, and a lot of experience and knowledge about our sport, and for that I am grateful.

Someone mentioned that they hadn't heard "kids say they wanted a shorter season"- that may be true. My kid wouldn't admit to you he's tired. But as a parent I know, and I see him struggle down the stretch, and struggle on nights that baseball practice is before wrestling, and then after wrestling is homework. I know we aren't the only family in this situation. And for what it's worth no matter what changes, if any at all, we will still wrestle.

That said- I would have to agree with Rich, lets get some more competition - what's another 2 or 3 pounds? More mat time with different kids equals better wrestlers.

As far as shortening the season- I won't complain if they do, but again, we will wrestle no matter what. I do see some benefits to ending before spring break.

These are just my opinions, as a grateful mom, who can't believe our time in kids wrestling is almost over, it has honestly been some of the best times of our lives. We have been very blessed to be part of an amazing sport, and I hope that there can be improvements made, so other families feel as great about it as we do.

Moving the State Tournament to a split tournament would suck for the coaches that don't have a dog in the fight but still coach because they love the sport and the kids. MS needs to stop and let the 6-8 graders wrestle kids club. This saves money for the school districts and the competition is better in club wrestling. I wouldn't want to take out the HS division at kids state, even if the numbers are low the state series is still making money. The true changes need to come in KSHSAA, then kids wrestling can adjust. The whole idea of youth sports is to make them better for the next level. So if HS wrestlers want to come back and compete in kids State against a 6a, 5a,4a or 321a athlete, then let them. KSHSAA needs to have their State series before the NJCAA National tournament. This would give our KS wrestling athletes to be seen by all college level coaches at the biggest HS tournament. I wouldn't want to change the weight classes to 5lb increments for the 6,8,10 you do that and you will lose wrestlers that weigh 51 and have to wrestle 55. Thats a huge difference at 6,8 and 10 under. The whole idea is to have numbers. The great will excel, the good will get better and the average will hopefully wrestle in HS and be a good work out partner for one of the great. It seems that you parents and coaches that have that great stud wrestler (athlete) forget about that average work out partner that puts in just as much time in the room 5 days a week but gets no credit for your kid winning the State Championship. Who cares what the other states schedules are, we are Kansas! Building athletes to compete in college even at the highest level. P Weigel (OSU) won the Big 12 this weekend as the #5 seed. Thats at the highest level, just look at all of the Kansas wrestlers in college (All Levels) this year and their accomplishments. Good Luck Review Committee