"My stance is this, unless you are a certified ref you have no business questioning the JUDGEMENT calls of a referee. And if you are certified then you really shouldn't be critical of your co-workers. I have made one exception and that was in the Ortiz-Deeds match because as a fan and a coach, and now as an official I know the call was wrong, and apparently so did everyone else in that entire Colusseum."

Guess that allows only nigel to question calls!

I remember one time at a tournament this year, not the state tournament, a match was going into OT. I was standing behind the table and the ref came over and set "1 minute" meaning put one minute on the time clock. He then asked, "Red has one stall and green has 2?" I wanted to say, "What does that matter?" If they are stalling, call it. Don't be to chicken to if even if someone may lose because of it. Either it's stalling or it's not.

I look back at the match last year at 189 between Strait of Concordia and Weishaar of Atchison. The ref called a stall on Weishaar in Double OT - and it was, he was laying on the legs. The ref called the stall, it gave Strait the win. I feel the ref made the right call but it made the Atchison fans pretty PO'd. Like I said, it doesn't matter where in the match - if it's a stall it's a stall, just be consistant

Nope you didn't read very well. I said people have no business questioning calls, I didn't say they coulnd't. As for me I just happen toi be certified so very rarely would you hear me saying anything negative about another referee. This just happened to be a very bad situation that warranted it. Now in general as a coach you are not allowed to question judgement calls which is why Ortiz's coach really didn't say anything after the call was made because he knew he couldn't. Once again though I would like to say that I take no credit away from Dexter it was a heck of a match and either wrestler could have won. Deeds walked out on top and there is nothing now that will change that.

MyDixie,

While you are correct on your point of calling stalling if you see it. I imagine the ref just wanted to make sure that he knew what the situation was. As an official I would have done the same thing. You want to make absolutly sure that they are stalling before yo uend the match because of it. Now hanging on the legs is blatent stalling so that call would not be hard to make. But if a did was just riding a leg or something then you have to judge between a stalemate and stalling.

What about the stalling point finley was raped of in the Finley vs Peterson cons. semifinal match?

I believe that call was more "fleeing the mat". Both wrestlers committed that penalty.

Wow a ref that made a call that actually went the way of Coach Moore, IT'S A MIRACLE! Moore has had more calls go against him than the desert has sand!

I don't know of anything off the top of my head that Phil Martin has done that might be remotely questionable dating back to 1998. Maybe before then I missed something...lol!

Swayz pay more attention.

Mike Brown of Topeka is exceptional. His ability to check his ego and attitude at the door is something most other refs should copy. He is a fan favorite. Mike is a working man and sometimes shows up to officiate without his shoes or is a few minutes late. (every body has their faults) but on the mat he is exceptional despite that one bad call at............

Phil is terrible
I have heard that he can not ref in clay center he is from clay center.

Nigel i know your a ref now and you wont talk crap on another ref but i think you have had a few words about phil in the past. I think he helped baker of hoxie get beat this year. He has been a bad ref for way to long something needs to be done he screwed me a few times in 98 and 99.

I was surprised to see him in hays last weekend i was not surprised to see him still screwing kids over.

In closing fire phil

Fire all the bad ones! J/K

Being a ref doesnt qualify you for anything other than, ""being a ref"" There are huge disparities in the quality of refereeing, I find it distressing when there are judgement calls being made that appear to not be tempered by guidelines.

Common situation::
It is aggravating when the score is 7-2 , the leader has been stalling for two periods and the ref warns him in the last ten seconds,,,give me a break.....I guess I dont really understand that call because I am not a ""referee"" but I am sure there is a perfectly good excuse,,er, explanation.

I see this as , making a halfa$$ed attempt to appease the other side, when in fact are outraged at the arrogance of assuming we are ignorant.

Pay them more, require continuing education, and adopt a set of standards to go by,,,,if they have standards that they can fall back on,,that eliminates arguments. There should be other requirements as well, not deaf, dumb,and blind.HAR

Where are all the young officials, there seems to be a great need for younger officials. Why don't you guys that are complaining pay your dues, get registered, attend the clinics, go to the rules meetings, don't forget the rules interpetation meeting,don't forget reading the rule book taking the test, then get started working some matches. My question is why are all the "wrong calls" occuring in the third period in the last seconds. What happened in the previous 5 + minutes of the match? Coaches should teach the wrestlers to work the full 6 minutes not stall around till the final seconds then have the official steal the match from them with a "bad call" Overall I thought the State Tournament was a well run event, they could speed up the finals but other than that it was well run and provided a spotlight for the finest wrestling in the State.

The younger guys would love to step in put on the stripes and make a few bucks but the antiques won't step back and let them. Hell I'd go as far as to say that the younger guys could even get low enough quick enough to see a pin.Not only are the ref's getting worse they don't really even care if you like it or not. I agree with everything justadad has said including let the seniors evaluate the refs. Lets improove kansas wreslting anfd get rid of theese deadbeat refs. Time for them to move on.

What did I miss. Strait got the call and is from Concordia....Moore is the coach of Concordia, unless you are talking something else.

Also I might add I don't think pay is the issue.
The coaches go 4 to 6 days a week for a hell of alot less. Where's the love of the sport man. Sorry ref's are over paid. Lack of pay is no reason to screw a wrestler. Don't even try to make like ref's dont screw some kids on purpose. Don't make me name names. LOL

you make some excellent points. Big fat guys like me (smart as I am) have no business officiating. I can't tell you how many times at the regional the ref refused to get down on the mat where he belonged and be in position. Good officials study the rule book and case book and know exactly what the rules are verbatum. Others just think they have been doing it long enough they should know. Good officials attend some meets when they are not officiating amd observe. (I wonder how many of those who didn't qualify to officiate at state took the time to go anyway. Good officials study film on the job they did and do a fair self-evaluation. Good officials make a point to keep track of the little things like making sure the score is right. Good officials leave the ego and attitude and the door and hustle while on the mat. Good officials can blow a call but will wonder about it and not go the chair and laugh about it.

Fanatic I think you make a good point there and i'm pretty sure I know exactly what ref and what situation yo uare talking about. Mr. Church I htink you have your ideas all wrong. I can say with a lot of certainty that MOST refs would not purposely try to screw a kid out of a match. Why? Becuase its pretty obvious when you do it. However the ones that do probably do so becuase the coach of the particular kid is down his throat on every single call. I know I blow calls sometimes, but I strive every time im out on the mat to get a little bit better. Since I've only been a ref for two years they are still times when I'll see something I've never seen before and I'll either call it or I'll miss it. However like Fanatic said if you've been doing it a long that shoulnd't exempt you from continuing to study your rules and case books. Speaking of which I was a little dismayed at one tournament before it even started I was bored so I took out my rules book and I was reading it just to confirm some situations that I had seen. And a coach walks over and was like "Oh boy that can't be a good sign" Now he said it in a joking way. But still if the sight of an official reading a rules book is a cause for concern then perhaps Coaches dont really want them to do their jobs.

The point about the refs being too slow or fat to get in position is a good one, some times toward the end of a long day, I have seen a ref call a pin from a kneeling position, not that it cant be done, but it is obvious ,it is a major undertaking just for him to get back up off the mat.

As for a ref screwing a kid on purpose,,,I dont believe that happens,,possibly a ref will tilt one way or the other deppending on attitudes of participants. The blatant call that I was talking about was when my son had a kid stacked up for 8 seconds and the ref didnt call the pin,,shoot other coaches on the other side of the coliseum asked me what was goiing on,,,basically everyone that witnessed it says he got screwed, ,,it knocked him out of medal contention. Being a senior is what makes it sting so bad, like I said , he copes like a man,,,,ma,,I am still hot about it.. That is not the only questionable call we saw that particular ref make,,so there needs to be some improvement.

One last thought, Nigel, I like your statement"I strive to become better each time I am out there"" that is a great attitude, and I applaud you.

Vince lombardi said""Winning isnt everything, but striving to win is"" the same goes for everyday life,striving to do your best r improve and grow, is what it is all about.

Good day