Feedback... Excellent!!! (Thanks Jason)

In regards to ratings (when?), last year is all that matters. Anything more than this is confusing the situation even more.

As for making harder that needs to be, see it my way;

Your at the seeding meeting arguing about whose wrestler is better than yours, you show your records, they show theirs, etc. Who should be seeded where? SIMPLE your wrestler took first in State last year and you can prove it (usawks.com has the placers listed) so your wrestler gets the number 1 seed! Confusing? No! Simple? Yes!

Now, will this work all season long? No! Does every tournament hold seeding meetings? No! How do you rank your wrestler? (read my previous post) Will this help? Maybe! (like I tell our wrestlers, "it's their tournament, they will seed competitors where they want to, right or wrong." Will this prevent sandbagging? No! Is this Objective (which is what we all say we want)? ABSOLUTELY!!!

(...stepping down from soapbox)

Thank you for reading.

Oh Boy! Where to start.

Confusing? NO Simple? NO

In case you didn't notice, the two rating scales that we have are the same, with the exception that I have a "AA".

You are confusing it by trying to list what a kids have placed at districts and subs. It doesn't even have to be that difficult.

There is nothing wrong with the current system. I just think it needs a little tweeking. As it is, it is possible for a wrestler to go to state, go two and out, and now he is in the same category as all the state placers and champion.

Opps! I pressed "add reply" before I was done.

The only tournament that I know of that has a seeding meeting is the subdistrict. I don't know of one coach that would want to go to a five hour seeding meeting every week. Yes it is the best solution but not practical. No. It is not a SIMPLE task to look at usawks.com to see if each wrestler has placed or not.

I'll say it again, the only reason we have these rankings is to seperate the top two or three wrestlers in each bracket. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter.

All you can do is throw the guidelines out their and trust that people are using them fairly.

I vote for not changing the system at all. We all need to remember that most of us volunteer our time to coach, president or secretary of the clubs and run tournaments. Bracketing for a tournament takes long enough and who wants to add a few hours to that process!

Also, especially in the 12 and 14 and under brackets some have 4 - 5 "A" wrestlers. There is no way to spread them apart any farther. I don't want to sit and figure out who placed what at State, National, International, World whatever tournament! Or who beat who last week!

As some have said it all works itself out on the mat. Our club coach also has another opinion -that he wants our kids to wrestle the best competition and the most matches - we don't particularly like the BYE's in the first round. Pinning your way through a tournament doesn't teach you to be a better wrestler - but losing to a stud and getting closer to beating that stud each week - makes you better in the end.

Lastly, placing 3rd is not bad - many times the #3 wrestler, due to placement in the bracket, could beat the #2 wrestler.

I don’t want to change the system, I want to change the wording so that everyone has the same.

Some of the wording I have received on entry forms:

A - State Champion
A - State Placer
A - Always takes first
A - Usually places first
A – Usually Places in the top two
A – Usually in the finals


B – State Placer
B – State Qualifier
B – Usually places in the finals
B – Usually places in the top two
B – Usually places in the top three
B – Above Average


C – State Qualifier
C – District Placer
C – Usually places in the top three
C – Usually places
C – Usually places 4th
C – Above Average
C – Average


D – Usually places 4th
D – Some time places
D – Average
D – Below Average
D – 1st year wrestler
D – 2nd year wrestler
D – Beginner
D – Novice


N – Beginner
N – 1st year wrestler
N – 2nd year wrestler
N – Novice

This is what I don't like! Everyone has a different way of doing it? You won't change the way most people think but let's change it so that everyone is using the same wording?

My understanding of the rating system is as follows:

A - State Qualifier (last year - not what you did 5 years ago as a 6 year old!)
B - Above average (places @ most tournaments)
C - Average - (sometimes places - sometimes doesn't)
D - Novice - beginner

When we send in our entries we don't specify anything more than A,B,C,D. Very simple!

This is the Generic one I would like to go with?

(A) usually 1st place
(B) consistent 2nd/3rd place
(C) occasional placer
(D) doesn't usually place
(N) novice/beginner

What about a challenge for 2nd. It was mentioned but then ignored. Other states do it and it does right seeding problems. MANY times the top two wrestlers are on the same side of the bracket and the one who loses has to settle for 3rd when a weaker wrestler slides into the championship on the other side. This happened to us this year at a National tournament that did not have the challenge option and did not seed. The top 3 wrestlers were on the same side of the bracket and only one made it to the championship. It really isn't that hard and doesn't add that many matches. The only way it happens is if the 3rd placer hasn't wrestled the 2nd placer.

For most smaller weekend pre-State qualifying tournaments, the current system is probably fine. I think it is okay for each tournament to set up their own rating system on their entry. I think a system like LegRider proposed would definitely be better for the bigger tournaments like the Salina, Topeka, and the Wichita-Park City Classic. These are three of the bigger tournaments that our club goes to every year for the best competition before the State series.

I would agree that the seedings really do not ultimately matter that much for the normal smaller weekend tournament, but I would prefer to see a more accurate seeding for these bigger tournaments. At these tournaments we are often going to the added time and expense of an overnight stay (sometimes two nights) and we really want a good competitive experience that will be close to the State tournament experience. In a situation like that we would rather not see the No. 1 and No. 2 wrestlers meet up in the first round. I have seen that twice already this year in two smaller tournaments. I did not think it was a big deal for these tournaments, but I would just like to see a more accurate seeding at these three bigger tournaments. I think LegRider's system would be more appropriate for these bigger tournaments and I would say that the accomplishments (State Champion, Placer, Qualifer should be for during the last two years).

I don't mind getting thumped by the best! That is what I like about wrestling. It gives you a chance to measure yourself.

My biggest concern is getting more mat time.
My son is a "C" wrestler - what ever that means ! He has entered 5 tournaments this year and placed at two. The other three he went two and out.
At Johnson County a few weeks ago there were ten in his weight class. It was clear there were 4 or 5 A-B wrestlers and 4 or 5 C-D wrestlers.
Why not have more round robins ? Put the best together (how ever you rate them) and let them slug it out. This lets all of the kids get as much mat time as possible. I suppose there would be parents that would gripe about being in the wrong list - but even if my son was put in with 4 other wreslters more advanced - he would have 4 opportunities to wrestle. That would make him better.

Mark

I believe that the situation that I described above (with the pre-tournament No. 1 and No. 2 wrestlers being matched in the first round) actually happened in my son's bracket this weekend at the Salina tournament. My son in my opinion should have been seeded No. 1 in this tournament. He won State last year in his first year of the 12 & under age bracket and he is also undefeated this year in the same 12 & under age bracket. It was a full 8 man bracket and somehow they seeded my son No.5. In the first round he faced a wrestler who from my knowledge of this year's and the last two year's results that I thought was the No. 2 wrestler of the eight wrestlers. There was also in the bracket another State Champion from last year from the lower 10 & under age bracket. He has been having a little tougher time so far this year in his first year in 12 & under and the heavier weight class. He was seeded third but I would have probably had him fifth going into the tournament. He did not end up placing. The young man who was seeded first is a fine young wrestler whose family has become a friend to my family. He is a first year 12 & under Missouri wrestler who has never won a match against my son although he gave him a great close battle at the Johnson County Classic this year. He is having a great year in Missouri 12 & under but I do not believe that he has placed at Missouri State yet (he should win it this year though). I would have seeded him fourth in this tournament.

This ended up okay for my son. He won the tournament. The No. 4 seed who my son wrestled in the first round ended up third. The No.1 seed who I would have seeded No. 4 did end up taking fourth. My son wrestled him in the second round. My son had a very tough final and had to get a last minute takedown to win by 6-5. I am not sure that my son has ever been in a full eight man bracket where in his three matches he ended up wrestling the 2nd place, 3rd place and 4th place wrestlers to win the tournament. For my son we ended up very pleased. He faced tough competition in all three matches and this will certainly help him going forward.

I just think that possibly the wrestler who I thought should have been the NO.2 seed would probably not be happy having to face my son in the first round. I think it would be okay for a normal weekend tournament but for a premier tournament like Salina where people travel great distances for a quality tournament experience, I think we should expect more accurate seeding. Ideally, don't you want to have the top wrestlers facing each other in the championship match at a big tournament instead of the first round? I looked at Salina's and Wichita's entry blanks. If I remember it correctly Salina has the more general categories like A-normally wins, B-normally finishes 2nd or 3rd etc.. Wichita has that too but also has to the side columns to list the number of state championships, state places, state qualifiers, etc.. I like Wichita's better and I believe that if it is correctly filled out that for these big tournaments where you get kids from all over Kansas and other states that the tournaments officials will have a better chance of seeding these kids that they are really not that familiar with.

I know that a lot of people do not think this is that big of a deal and maybe it isn't. I just believe though that when people are investing that much more time and money to attend these bigger tournaments that the tournament officials owe it to the wrestlers, coaches and families to do the most accurate seeding possible and that past competitive State tournament experience can more accurately accomplish that than the more general type of information that the smaller local tournaments use and that has been suggested in this topic.

As last year's state champ my son also was seeded low in his bracket this weekend in Salina. He was seeded 5th behind 3 kids he beat at state last year and came up against the #1 seed in the 2nd round. My son did beat him and went on to win. But it made that #1 seed end up in 3rd vs the 2nd he should have been. At the very least my son should have been 2nd seed with being in the lower age division last year.

I understand that they just took all the "A" wrestlers and put them in the top however many wrestlers there were seeds. In this instance, a better rating system could have been used to seed better. For what it is worth, this I think could work for the bigger tournaments to seperate the 5 or 6 "A" wrestlers who enter.

:rolleyes: I too hope they could come up with something to better seed Brackets. it was my son that Jacob Wrestled in the first round he's a great wrestler and my son really enjoyed wrestling him although he lost, your son is a great competitor and a fine young man.my other son same boat,this weekend and last he and the other wrestler in question were the top two wrestlers in there brackets and they had them wrestle in the first rounds in both tourney's

Hey Vince, Nathan wasn’t even seeded at Salina, go figure! I just used it as motivation for Nathan though and would encourage coaches to do that. I even had him carry the bracket to the finals match to look at when getting ready. I have purchased 3 books in the last month titled Winning State which goes into how to turn this type of thing (motivation) around. I do definitely agree though that the best kid will finish at the far right of the bracket as Forvac suggests. The true number one seed of any tournament is the kid that wrestles the best that day, and Lord knows, that could be any number of kids in any weight in any division.

The more I have thought about the ratings system I believe another option is having just two divisions, Novice and Advanced. Then you will need a better definition of what a true Novice wrestler is. I will say this, the system here in Kansas is as good as any place I have seen but everyone is going to have letdowns at times. Including the Salina tournament, which by the way is a tournament hosted by what I believe to be one of the strongest and best clubs in the state. Their wrestlers, parents, and coaches have never been anything but courteous and if there were mistakes, I believe they were just that, mistakes which could happen to any club.

I think the tournament was ran great. They did what they could do with the ratings. This was our first year and we will go back!! It was well ran and when you have 4 or 5 "A" wrestlers with the current rating system...they did what they could. Good job Salina. Thank you for a good tournament.

forvac,

First of all it doesn't take me hours to research my son's group on the internet. I could easily do that in a few minutes. The kids I would have rated one thru five were based mostly from my seeing them compete in or around my son's group for the last several years including this year before Salina. Could I have seeded this bracket better? Yes I could have because of this experience. I am sure you could do the same with your child. Of course I or you do not expect the seeding from the tournament directors to have that close of knowledge of my son's bracket nor would I volunteer it or expect them to ask for it.

My whole point is that for the major tournaments during the year like Salina, Topeka and Wichita-Park City that I believe that there can be a better system like the one LegRider proposed or that asks for the information that Wichita-Park City does on their entry blank. My reason is that there are a lot of people who come from a distance and have to go to the expense of overnight stays and added travel expenses for a high quality competitive experience. Like I said I do not care where my son is ranked at our local tournaments. I just would rather not see the No. 1 and 2 or 3 kid meeting in the first round at one of these big tournaments.

Salina's scale is A-State Qualifer, B-Above Average, C-Average, D-Beginner. In a tournament like this one you are going to attract a lot of state qualifers. I know at least five of the eight wrestlers in his bracket this weekend have been state qualifers. State Qualifer does not tell enough if you are trying to get an accurate seeding in a big tournament with a lot of out of area wrestlers. It would be helpful to know if there are state champions and placers in the mix. Wichita's entry asks for that.

Forvac, was I concerned about other brackets or did I know of any others done incorrectly? I did hear of others done incorrectly that people were not happy with. I know for a fact that I was far from the only person not happy with Salina's seeding. I would like to see all the brackets seeded as accurately as possible at these big tournaments. People invest a lot of time and money when they travel a distance to these tournaments and I think they should expect that the seeding will be reasonably accurate.

To answer you, Mike and others who have made statements about not worrying about it and that the best wrestler will usually finish first anyway. Well I know that and I also realize it can be used as a motivational tool and that is what we did when my son expressed a slight bit of disappointment after he found out about his seeding. I really don't think that is the point though. If you have the top two wrestlers wrestling in the first round one of them is going to lose their chance for second. Again I know that is not a big deal but it does mean a little something to these kids at these bigger meets.

forvac, I understand that running any size tournament is a lot of work. I agree with that and I appreciate all the volunteer hours that go into putting on a tournament. I know from volunteer efforts in other things that it is very difficult to hear criticism after you have done all of that volunteer work. I was not saying though that I thought Salina was a poorly run tournament. I was just trying to point out that there might be a little better way to improve the seeding for it. Please take a little bit of time to compare the Salina and Wichita-Park City entry forms that you can find on the Calendar section of this website. If you do that, I believe you would see that Wichita's entry form if filled out completely (listing the number of state championships, state placings, and state qualifiers) has a better chance of getting a correct seeding than the Salina entry form. Yes I realize that you will never make everyone happy and that it will still be difficult for seeding the youngest wrestlers who do not have as much history to compare. Still I think you would make a whole lot more people happy with Wichita's system if everyone fills it out correctly and I really don't think it would add that much more work for the tournament's seeding committee. Actually I would think it would be easier for them because they would have so much more information available.

Finally I thought your first post was saying that I was just being a selfish parent who was just complaining about his kid's seeding at Salina. I will admit that like my son I also felt we were a little slighted with the Salina seeding. But I was only using it as an example of the post that I made on the same situation in this topic on 1/26/04 at 9:48 PM. That was about four days before we knew what my son's Salina seeding would be. It was intended as an example to support my position in that post. It was personal and maybe I should not have done it. Maybe I came across as slighting the other wrestlers. If I did I apologize to all of them, because I have a great deal of respect for all of them. They are all fine wrestlers who are very capable of defeating my son on any given day. Believe me we had plenty of concern that he was not going to win his first match and the rest of them too for that matter.

Vince - No problem, I did see your team on Saturday but was on the floor so much I didn't get to see you. When I saw several of the brackets for our kids I really didn't think this one tournament was seeded until the coaches meeting. I do know that in Nathan’s division that both boys in the state finals last year met up in the semis. It would be interesting to know how specifically the seeding was done. Without a challenge for 2nd though it is really hard to determine which wrestler would have filled that spot, then again, there are arguments over the challenge system itself. Is the Tournament of Champions still a qualifying tournament for the national TOC? If so, it certainly makes the importance of appropriate seeding and ratings even more important.

Mike,

I was not at the Salina tournament. My wife went with my son and I stayed home with my daughter. My wife travels a lot better than I do and I had not been to one of my daughter's basketball games yet since I have been attending all of Jacob's wrestling meets this year before Salina. I heard about his seeding after they weighed in on Friday night.

Mike, if you have a little time I would like for you do the same thing that I requested forvac to do and compare the entry forms for Salina and Wichita-Park City. I am interested in your opinion as to which one is more appropriate for a high quality tournament of champions.