I don't think parking in Manhattan would be a problem. The KSU Bramlage parking lots have at least as many parking spaces as the Kansas Colliseum. The only problem is that I don't know if Bramlage was really built for wrestling from a spectator's standpoint.

I'm sure Hays is nice, but there are very few 5A/6A teams that far West. It's a mighty long trek from Manhattan as it is. I can't imagine how long it would take for some of the KC guys.

OH NO! not a long trip!

It's not just the long trip. It's that the long trip doesn't make sense. Why would you send 55 teams (just a guess) three hours or more West when you have the same accomodations much closer to home? Hays makes a lot of sense for 1A-3A, but for 5A-6A it's not logical. Long trips cost money, and that's not something a lot of schools in Kansas have right now. Plus, Manhattan rules Hays drools.

Name me an arena in Kansas that was built for wrestling. Bramlege is probably as close as anywhere else.

Ulyses tiger pit

I think Salina would work. It is a little more centrally located. Or move everything to Hays. Fill the entire bottom floor with mats. Do not allow any downstairs seating. If there was not enough time just extend the tournament to 3 days. Hays Hosted the NAIA nationals one or rwo years and that is what they did I believe. How ever I do not know everything. I don not think that moving the tourney to manhattan is a good idea because of the split up of the classifications. I think the state may not want to pay for the use of two buildings. But I do agree with the fact that 4a, 5a, 6a, need to leave Wichita. Maybe after a year or two and the economic dent it would make maybe there would be enough pressure on them to work better and with everyone invloved. The Reason why I do not like the Manhattan idea as well is the fact that KSU dropped thier wrestling program so why would we want to support them? Fort Hays is the only four year school with a program. They obviously know how to run a tournament lets throw our money thier way. Screw K-State.

Coach L:
By hosting the tournaments at Manhattan, it just might open some eyes at that level. This area is replete with solid wrestling programs (Manhattan, Abiline, Clay Center) to name just a few. Plus, KSU has an outstanding new collegiate club with national level competitors.
Sooner or later TITLE IX will encompass qualitative equity and not rigid quantitave parity.
I like the idea of Salina as well.
Just thoughts.

Tim

Nobody has mentioned the hotel factor. Topeka really picks your pocket during the kids state tourney. Don't know if Salina or Manhattan have enough rooms to stop that from happening. If the hotels are at capacity they will charge more. Just a thought.

I agree that those high schools have outstanding programs. That can not be denied. However I feel that Fort Hays has been with Kansas Wrestling through thick and thin. KSU has not. It is great that they have this other program for students to do. That is fine. But they have not really stepped out and shown alot of support that I really now of. If I am wrong correct me please. Are people afraid to support Fort Hays. If they are they should not be. It is a great school with a good coach. One thing is for sure the kids that usually wrestle there get thier degrees. I mean that is why you go to college don't you? If we sent those kids that went to divsion 1 to fort hays think of all of the national titles that could be won. Please do not tell me that Div. 1 is more prestigous. If you are a All-American at Division 2 you are still a great wrestler. I just think we should support Fort Hays more. The more money they have to work with the better the program will become. Why do we need to convince KSU to start a program again? Support the program that has been there. This is my small humble opinion and if I make any KSU fans mad I am truly sorry about it. I think KSU is a great school but I think they have shown that they are possibly a little more concerned with football and are trying to biuld up a.... dare I say it......a basketball team. Don't take this post like I know everything. I do not want anyone to take it that way.

I think it would be great to have all divisions in the same town, but I agree the hotel issue would be a large obstacle. I also like the Manhattan idea, and I think if we ever have any hopes of restarting a program at KSU, we have to choose Mr. Shea's perspective over Coach L., with the exception of the fact that we DEFINITELY should support Ft. Hays. It bothers me, too, to see so many quality Kansas wrestlers go away to other states, but if we take the attitude "screw K State" (or any KS school without wrestling), we are giving up all hope for a return of their wrestling program. Unfortunately, I don't think Manhattan is prepared for this in terms of hotel rooms. We have a hard time getting a room in Wichita and there are many more there.

I really hope no one gives much weight to the idea of separating 4A in its own facility. Someone from Manhattan posted that they like to watch 4A. Thank you! 4A likes to watch 5 & 6A, and for that matter, we'd like to watch 3-2-1A if it was possible. The Coliseum is definitely not ideal, but I'd rather do that for the time being than have 4A pulled away.

By the way, I AM a KSU fan and you didn't offend me, but why not push for more programs? I am absolutely NOT a KU fan, but I'd rather see them add a wrestling program than not gaining one at all.

Tim (from your ever-loyal assistant):

Nice call (and nice use of the big words!)! Putting state in Manhattan could be the perfect precursor to bringing back wrestling to your alma mater. And you're right about Title IX, too.

No one is deserting Fort Hays. The problem is that we need to do what is best for HIGH SCHOOL wrestling in the state and quit worrying about tradition and everything else. For now, Hays is great for the 3-2-1As as Salina would for the 4As and Topeka for the big schools.

But a single site tournament would be a great boon to the state and K-State would be the ideal site for it.

Jeff

I don't think holding a state meet in any town would make the college think seriously about fielding a wrestling program. KU just cut some men's sports (tennis and swimming, if you want to call those "men's...") and would probably add those before they added wrestling. I don't think K-State will ever create a wrestling team either. Plus, holding the tournament in Wichita hasn't sparked interest from Wichita State. (Any thoughts about moving the tournament to WSU's basketball colliseum?)

I don't know if Manhattan has enough hotels or not. There are plenty, and they hold lots of visitors for KSU games, but I'm not sure about wrestling. On another note, I think Hat-town hotels would be cheaper than rooms in Wichita or Topeka. You could also rent rooms in Junction City, which is like many teams renting hotel rooms in Newton.

Thoughts:

1) From logistical standpoint, Manhattan area has more than enough facilities to host any KSHSAA state event. If Hays can pull it off (and 3A-1A should stay there...it's now institutionalized)than Manhattan/Topeka can.
2) KSU routinely allows local Kids Wrestling tournament which has as many participants as a KSHSAA state event.
3) Universities are profit oriented institutions. If a positive bottom line is possible, than the university will move toward enacting. However, the size of a wrestling team (12+ weight classes) multiplied by any given number of scholarships (presumptive, you could have a program w/o scholarships..but then this whole discussion is moot) inhibits the universities from establishing programs unless they can equitably demonstrate the same toward a woman's sport. For example, there are maybe 10 scholarshiped women on the basketball vice the 45 men on a football team. Something(body) has to lose (and football will not budge). The cost of the actual programs are irrelevant (i.e. when's the last time any university golf team or track team made money?) as virtually every institution lives or dies on men's football, men's basketball or women's basketball.
4) It's always good to remember as well that universities aren't easily 'bullied' as easily as the local school board. Granted, they're very concerned with image, but it's a risk/reward balancing act.

Tim

I just want people to support Fort Hays more. We have got to get they more money so that they can make wrestling worth it for a young High School kid. It takes alot of work. As far as I know they still do not give out very many full rides so that everyone can get some money. My next question is why is everyone hung up on k-state. Look at Ks Juco programs. They are darn good. I think that those coaches at that level are doing an outstanding job. We have got to support the people that have been there. Are we trying to get k-state to start a program for Ks high school wrestling or are we doing it to benefit the schools in that region? I am not trying to sound like a jerk here but that is something I would like to know. Next I agree that WSU has never started a program and 4a-6a State has been there a long time. So why would moving the tourney to manhattan put pressure on KSU? I my small humble opinion I think that KSU starting up a wrestling program is a pipe dream and that we need to support the ONLY FOUR YEAR UNIVERSITY WITH A WRSTLING PROGRAM FORT HAYS STATE!!!!!!!

Coach L:
Roger...But how do you 'support' Fort Hays? Seems implausible to bring any other KSHSAA events to Hays simoultaneous with the 3A-1A. Would be injustice to stagger state events - though not improbable - so that all could wrestle there. I don't feel Hays has the logistical capacity to expand from its current tournament load.
I also think we may be talking two different aspects. I'm not advocating KSU over FHSU (with competing funds etc). I was simply trying to lay out discussion for KSU (in particular) matters.
As to JUCOs, I concur that those are valuable programs. Again, goes to profitability... very poor analogy but - "Everybody wants to date Cindy Crawford...but who can afford to?" Those colleges with imbedded wrestling programs have an institutional fan base that shows a positive bottom line ... and even then that comes under fire with Title IX...(in res latest court challenges etc). Just thoughts.

Tim

Just for the record, I would like to date Cindy Crawford!

Seriously though, I like the idea of Salina a little bit. Wichita is ok if they didnt hold it in that cold dark barn with those rude people working there selling concessions and refusing to clean the bathrooms. Man that place is a pigsty. I like Wichita though, but Salina has its good points too although I really have no idea how much space they have in the way of hotels. That is the good thing about Wichita.

From what I understand both coach Bickley and Fort Hays AD Tom Spicer may be very interested in the possibility of adding 4A to the 321A tournament. I know they can add additional mats on the lower level as they did at kids state when I was a kid. They could also condense to two mats for the finals and bring out the large bleachers down stairs for additional seating as they do for basketball and home wrestling meets. (With the bleachers out they can seat almost 9000 people). Their have also be several motels built there over the past few years plus there are some 30 miles east in Russell and some 30 miles west in Wakeeney. The question then becomes where does 5A, 6A go. so far Manhatten sounds the best. I personally think separating them would be a huge mistake. Decreasing the tournament size, crowd size, and prestige, not to mention the commerce level of the hosting community. Where ever they go they should stay together. The ideal way to go of course would be to hold them all together. The problem is Kansas does not have a community that is large enough with a big enough venue to host. One question I have is how will this be handled for the dual state if it ever gets passed. Since there will be fewer teams it should be possible to hold the event with all classes together which would be very cool. I can't remember if this issue was addressed in the proposel or not??

You are right Tim I did not think about the injustice of staggering the event. That was wrong. Well back to square one.......

Interesting conversation. I vote for Demi Moore!

Randy Hinderliter :p

Mamasawn:

Could work with the 4A-1A tournaments at same venue. Still think Manhattan/Topeka area is better logistically.
As far as dual state, and this is to open a HUGE can of worms, would recommend that it be held following coaches'concurrence, moderated by KSHSAA/and KWCA representatives, choosing the top 2-3 dual teams from 3-1A, 4A, 5A and 6A - wrestled the week before regionals. Seasonal start/stop dates could be adjusted accordingly. Would provide huge incentive for those teams
which may not be as 'tournament' tough but dual competitive and make regional seeding a bit easier. Would also serve as excellent venue for 'one stop shopping' from collegiate scouts.

Tim