agree with post from wsewc....definitely jr high and kids are the start points for SOLID FUNDAMENTALS in wrestling (sort of like reading is to academics isn't it?). to me, that is where kids learn that aggressive wrestling from all positions is INGRAINED into the psyche of the wrestler.

would be very, very interesting to poll number of state champs/placers and see how many of them DID NOT start out in a solid jr hi or kids program... it happens, but the odds are so overwhelming in support of the younger programs developing great wrestlers.

tim shea

Laurice Reagans, WSE. Started out his freshman year. Beat a state champ to win it all his junior year.

There's one example.

The 103 lber from Emporia. State runner up.

Any other examples?

WSEWC

I agree with you that our Jr. High programs are not the equivalent of that of other states. Fortunately, I have a great Jr. High coach heading up our program and he is always very receptive to what we do at the high school. Unfortunately, I would imagine that there is some friction between coaches in other districts as to what should be taught at the Jr. High level. But, I don’t think there is one lone problem or one lone solution to increasing the competitiveness of our state’s wrestling programs.

Kansas deserves more credit than it receives on the national level of wrestling. In terms of the state as whole (Eastern, Central, and Western), Kansas is still somewhat in the infancy stage for the sport of wrestling. If memory serves me correctly, wrestling began in the early-to-mid 1930’s in western Kansas. I guessing here, but I don’t think wrestling really got going in the eastern part of the state until the mid 60’s. I know it didn’t get started until 1972-73 at my alma mater (Santa Fe Trail). So, the sport hasn’t exactly reached maturity yet, but I also feel there are many great things to come for Kansas wrestling.

I think one of the uphill battles we fight here in Kansas is against the realm of basketball (forgive me wrestling fans, I didn’t want to use that dirty word, but I had to). I think we have definitely (note the correct spelling of definitely, there is no (a) in the word, thank God for spell check) made up some ground in this area, but we have a ways to go. I know one of the battles I fight as a wrestling coach is that every kid in the school thinks, or at least their parents think that they are the second coming of Michael Jordan. In the past we have had kids trying out for the basketball team that are 5’10 and 260 pounds. Some of these kids have a hard time running the distance of the floor in under a minute. What I see as a major problem is that these kids are too scared, or maybe too lazy to go out for a sport that requires so much hard work. I’m sure that like myself many other coaches have heard comments from kids that they have never worked so hard in other sports as they had to in wrestling. Lastly, and I know I’m not the only one to ever do this, but as wrestling coaches we need to make the sport more viewer friendly by making it understandable to perspective fans. Most people (non-wrestling people) don’t understand what is means to secure a takedown or what a nearfall count is, so we need to educate them. In the past during the season beginning scrimmages we have put on a short clinic for the crowd so that they could understand at least some of the calls and it seemed to help raise interest among those watching. I know none of us have the ultimate solution, but patience is a virtue.

5 examples, Laurice Reagans, grad., (state champ), Kelvin Patterson, 12, (2x reg. champ, 2x state placer), Bobby Hurd, 11, (16U kid's state champ, HS state placer), Mario Martinez, 11, (state qual. as first year wrestler), Timothy Adams, 10, (state qual., Reagan's cousin).
What do they all have in common:
1. Never wrestled before high school.
2. Wrestled for WSE, population ~1800.
3. Great athletes, in other words exceptions.
If they had started wrestling before HS, they would have all been multiple champs, I would think, and I know Reagans was hurt his senior year or he probably would have been.

I have to disagree with Tim Shea on one point,not teaching a kid a"cheap move" ie: cowcatcher, front headlock, head and arm, in the younger years prevents them from recognizing one when it is being applied. I have seen many kids pinned with one of these combinations, because they never saw them in practice, and didnt even know what was hitting them. If they dont practice applying moves like that , they also will not be adept at recognizing and countering them.

just thoughts:

as to those who did well in wrestling starting in high school...GREAT!!! but, my point was that MOST will have difficulties..some, such as these, can overcome lack of mat experience - which is probably the most critical element in later success - with outstanding physical skills and outstanding coaching. when those two are mixed it's virtually unbeatable.

as to not teaching healocks, cowcatchers, etc. it's the EMPHASIS on those particular moves, usually through well meaning dads or coaches, and the OVER-RELIANCE on those moves by the youngsters that can stymie fundamental development. yes, wrestlers need to recognize moves...but by teaching the fundamentals of inside positioning, solid base, movement, level change, angles of attack,etc, many of those same 'power' moves are simply negated. where it tears you apart is when you see kids hit stiffer competition and lose due to that over reliance. i think what happens most is that many coaches/kids figure 'why fix it if it works?' without looking deeper than the next opponent.

as to the maturity of the sport in kansas, i absolutely agree with coach neil's assessment of the 'basketball' phenomenon. unfortunately, too many of our peers in the basketball community do prospective athletes an injustice when they don't lay the cards on the table and direct the young man/woman to the wrestling room.

another thought: the 'no cut' policy that many schools maintain actually hurts wrestling (in which the no cut rule simply doesn't apply due to the nature/structure of the sport) because far too many basketball programs, particularly in smaller schools, will have 30 kids out and most with little or no playing time...

Tim Shea

Here is (as I understand) the list of current Kansas seniors attending D-I programs to wrestle next year:

Neil Cisper, St. Thomas Aquinas, PENN
Brady LaMar, Silver Lake, NEBRAKSA
Chris Pursel, ACCHS, IOWA STATE
Ryan Sonderegger, SM East, MISSOURI

Who am I missing?

Hmmmmmm lets see here Larry Perez stuck the majority of his oppponents with the snake. That move is taught at a very young age, and I know he hasnt pinned shumate with it but it has gotten him 2 titles and i'm sure it got him into the finals up there in Fargo last summer. So you go ahead and tell me that those moves hurt you as you get older. I think it is all in how you use them.

What the hell is the snake?

I think sometimes its called the bulldog.

Haven't seen any releases on Pursel and Sondregger signing with these schools. Are you sure about that those are official? Maybe these are walk-ons which it sounds like the case might be with Lamar.

Lamar is a scholarship

Easy WSEWC,

Reagans was a state champ his junior year and granted, he was hurt and didn't finish the season his senior year, it doesn't mean he would have been a state champ.

When Laurice was a junior, he wrestled a tough tourney. Everyone that he wrestled had beaten him that year. We went into the tourney with the mindset that you only have to beat a person once to be a state champ.

That strategy, along with believing it and peaking at the right time was the essential ingredients. He came into the tourney under the radar and when it was all said and done, most people left wondering, "where'd he come from?" No one prepared for him because they had already beaten him. A few multiple times.

When he came off the mat, he smiled and said, "you're right coach, you only have to beat 'em once to be a champ."

That whole strategy would have had to of changed his senior year. I don't know what the strategy was, but it didn't matter - he got hurt.

It's a whole different mindset to repeat. I don't know if all the ingredients needed to repeat were in place. It's much tougher coming in with everyone shooting to upset you.

The 2nd one is definitely tougher than the 1st.

I have never seen any statistics, numbers or percentages from a reliable source that says Kansas wrestlers get recruited less for DI schools than any other state. Are you guys sure they are not or are you just assuming they aren't. I can think of Kansas wrestlers who are now wrestling at Nebraska, Oklahoma, Missouri, Iowa, Iowa State, Northern Colorado, Stanford, Oregon, and Air Force.

mamasawn

How many of our seniors in the great class 2005 of are going on to wreslte DI? I count Cisper and Lamar, and Lamar is academic. What about 4x Baldridge, Cornejo, Grater, Taplin...you know the guys we've been hearing about for 4 years on this site? Not that there's anything wrong with DII,III, NAIA and JUCO. But, the best of our best are not going to DI.

Dumbest topic I have ever seen on here. I coached wrestling as a head coach for about 25 years in this state. Met a lot of college coaches in my time. I never heard one of them say a bad word about Kansas Wrestling. Some of the most famous names in the history of the sport have come from Kansas and will in the future as well. The only thing wrong with Kansas is the big inferiority complex people have about things here. We are like lions eating our own young. I could name about a hundred former college wrestlers D1 mostly but what would be the point. By the way the world does not revolve around D1 wrestling. Oh a lot of people say Utah wrestling is bad too, cept for those Sandersons. Man this is out there for sure. I shouldn't even have commented on it cause it keeps the thread going but man this is bad.

Gutwrench-I don't know how many are going DI. I also don't know why the kids you mentioned are not wrestling DI nor do I know how many of them had offers from DI schools. What I'd like to know is how many kids from year to year at DI programs come from Kansas and how does that compare to other states? Do you know?

HOW MANY DI PROGRAMS ARE THERE? NCAA WEB SITE SAYS 85. HOW MANY HIGHSCHOOL SENIORS WRESTLE?

BY THE WAY. HOW MANY KS SENIORS THAT WANT TO WRESTLE IN COLLEGE HAVE REGISTERED WITH THE NCAA CLEARING HOUSE AND HAVE TAKEN ACT'S OR SAT'S. THEY SHOULD HAVE REGISTERED THEIR JR. YEAR. AND SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE ACT THREE TIMES BY NOW. AND CHECK THEIR CORE CURRICULM CLASSES, HOW MANY MEET THE CLEARING HOUSE REQUIRMENTS? THERE ARE SO FEW DI PROGRAMS AND SO MANY WRESTLERS THAT A SIMPLE GPA CAN KEEP A KID OUT. DI NOT ONLY WANTS GREAT ATHLETES BUT THEY HAVE TO HAVE GREAT STUDENTS AS WELL.