Hey Cokeley, the more I think about it, the more I have a problem with the term "the glory of the state tournament". You are assuming that the only glory felt in that environment is the glory felt by the winners of each weight. I always remember the looks on my wrestlers faces as they walk into the arena with their school plaques and parade around the mats with the crowd cheering and all the hoopla. The looks on the faces of some of the kids you are devaluing here was priceless and is as vivid to me, now that I am not coaching, as the looks on the kids I had that were state champions. In my mind, I see no difference in the worth of those two thrills. Some of them were so emotional over that experience that they cried like a baby. What a shame that would have been if they had not had the opportunity to experience that moment. If you go to state this year watch the kids as they walk in. They are thrilled to death and they are getting their moment in the sun. Everyone should have that moment don't you think and when you think about it, it is a small price to pay to give it to them.

Also, take into account some of the losing records may be JV wrestlers that have had the opportunity to wrestle regionals because of injuries. I have three JV kids that are going to state because of injury. They have virtually no record and would have wrestled varsity at any other school but mine. Are you saying they don't deserve the "glory" of state because they didn't wrestle varsity and have a winning record?

Seems to me that they are pretty darn good, regardless of record. What about a kid whose team goes to a lot of tough tourneys and gets a losing record? Does that mean they are horrible? Not in the least.

I think that self esteem is for the special olympics. when 1 in 5 varsity wrestlers in any class are getting Medals, it waters down the honor. sorta like comparing a league high school
championship with the super bowl. no more than 10 percent of the wrestlers in any bracket should
be able to medal at state, like in 123a. no surprise that the no.1 321a team beats the no1 ranked 6a team in dual head to head by 20 points!
I know its special to go, but make it mean something.

OK, did 123a have the best team last year? Could anyone beat Bishop Carroll last year? Does having the best team in the state mean you have the toughest classification? Just my thoughts.

I guess I missed the self esteem issue. Didn't notice it brought up. Anyway....

Let's not get into the 321/all other debate. It doesn't have much merit for the topic at hand.

Farleigh you have been out in the cold there for too long today. Hoxie is having there day in the sun right now but it wasnt too long ago that Ark City was kicking everyone around the block. It comes and it goes my man. Hey did you tell Kramer I sent you?

By the way, up here in the city and out there when I was a kid growing up, self esteem was THE issue and I think it always will be. There isn't near enough of that stuff around for these kids now days and there is plenty of the other stuff. We need to dish out all we can find of it to help these kids along.

I agree, I don't want to get into that. Just wanted to point out what he said about it being no big surprise where the best team in the state is from this year.

That self-esteem they get from this year by making it to state means a lot when they come back next year.

Somebody write down the time and date, I think???? that Sands just agreed with me on an issue....I think...

Sorry Westfahl I didn't agree with with you on that post. I was talking to coach gibson. I do however agree on several issues you have stated. I'm not on here to single anyone out just to state the facts and my own opinions.

My bad lol

Westfahl, Cramer says hi, he says it was a bitter pill but he learning to adjust (former state champ-- his kid plays basketball!) My comment about the self esteem relates to the way we make getting to state easier so the kids will feel good about themselves. a cynhical comment, maybe that's not the reason. all I know is that if you count all the years that all the schools were together, some 42 years, you get quite a few more small school champion teams that large ones. and any other yardstick is theoretical because there is no head to head like there used to be. you will never know how those teams since would have done against each other (except when they do meet) because we have made a state championship for each class, thereby (in my opinion) cheapening the value of the title.

i think it was coach harris from baldwin that suggested the idea of regionals, then class champion, then the top 4 from each class go on to a grand state. that sounds like a really good idea to me. you still have a lot of kids going to a state tournament and then the grand state would let everyone truly know who the best is. very good idea.

Yeah and that will never ever happen again. You can talk about it till your blue in the face but the state will never ever do that again. Basketball couldnt make it work and we did and they will never forget it. I was in on all that and I can tell you that they couldnt line up fast enough at the state to get rid of GRand State Tourney, not because it wasn't a raging success, it was. Hey maybe because it was a raging success. Naw couldn't be. That and because some pig headed influencial coaches that wanted to remain the big fish in the small ponds didn't like getting whipped after they had won state titles. It was a mess the way it ended but man what a show it was while it was there. They will never ever let it happen again though I can assure you of that.

Farleigh, I see what you mean but I would counter by saying that in the days that Cramer and I and you were wrestling, teams didn't get together much during the season and there wasn't much of a mixing of the classes. Today they see each other all over the place and things have evened out across the state. I know that is a bitter thing for a former Western Kansas kid to say but its true. Once you get past the first round of the tourneys I don't think there is much to pick from in the classes. They are pretty even and hey if one was good four is even better. A state champ is a state champ and on any given day.... well you know how that goes. Tell Cramer I am sorry I misspelled his name, I always did that. I confuse him with the rich Kramer's loll. See ya

Yeah, let's try to withhold the joy of wrestling in the state tournament from a kid just because he lives in a big town. That makes total sense.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that many 6A kids have to wrestle against another varsity-caliber (or at least close to it) just to make it on his own squad. Whereas a small school guy may not have anyone in his weight, a 5A/6A guy can conceivably have someone who would be varsity somewhere else. For example: our 103 is ranked #1 in state, and every week had to wrestle off against our JV 103, who beat the #2 ranked kid from another school while wrestling unattached. Obviously this isn't always the case, but sometimes a 6A guy has to wrestle his best just to get out of the mat room.

There was a guy just a few years ago that wrestled for Oklahoma State and qualified for nationals. He walked in with a losing record, walked out with a national championship. Good thing they didn't keep him out because his record.

I'm sorry but I would have to have a name on that Okie State kid. I believe a lot of things but that ain't one of them lol. But maybe who knows I been fooled before.

Prant, just when I start reading your stuff you go and say stuff like that. At some of those little schools you talked about they are three and four deep. One year when I was in high school a kid from St.Francis that was 0-0 beat out a state champ before regional and won the state championship with a 9-0 record. Hmmmmm.Can't make blanket statements about some of those places they got a lot of good wrestlers in those programs.

Some of you are missing the point. I never stated that a wrestler's record should have anything to do with whether or not they go to state. My point is that too many are being qualified which leads to wrestler's with poor records. If everyone needs to "feel good" by going to state the KSHAA could do away with regionals and invite all 32 5A & 6A kids to state. Make it a pull through tournament and you only add a few matches. Personally I think that would be a joke but at least everyone would "feel good".

amen-- lets not "withold the joy " of being a state champion to anyone, sell gold medals for , say 2.50 each so that everyone can have the distinction! some distinction. I appreciate the fact that your school has tought brackets, but no tougher than some 4a and smaller ones. when you are 1 of 75 entrants, it is a bigger deal than 1 out of 32.