Ok Mamasawn you win. I thought you meant he had a losing record in high school when he went to Oklahoma State. I just didnt give you enough credit I guess.

How can you say that their needs to be fewer qualifiers. Have you ever been to a regional tournament and seen how intense those kids are in that consilation semis match. Look at the faces of both wrestlers as they walk off the mat. They both probably have tears in their eyes one because they just reached a goal or a dream came true. And the other guy just had his dreams shattered, so don't even say that there are too many qualifiers. You really cares about the guys record if he peeked at the right time and had a great weekend he deserves to go to state.

I've been reading this thread for a few days and so I decided to figure out if any particular classification had it easier in qualifying for state compared to another. It seems that the total number of students in each classification should be considered. I did this very quickly by obtaining the enrollment numbers and numbers of schools in each class, working out a rough estimate of the average school size in each class, and computing the total number of students each classification draws from. Here are the results: 6a 40,512 students, 5a 22,496 students, 4a 21,655 and 321a 24,044. However, all 32 schools in 6a and 5a have wrestling teams and 61 of 62 4a teams have wrestling but only 73 out of 240 321a teams have wrestling making their total number of potential wrestlers much fewer. Even if all 73 321a schools were the average size of 3a schools, that would provide a potential pool of 12,848 wrestlers or half the size of 4a and 5a and less than 1/3 the size of 6a. Even if all 73 321a schools were the size of the largest 3a school it would only add up to 15,987 wrestlers. So I think the argument that a 6a state championship is somehow cheap compared to a 4a or 321a championship because they take half the 32 wrestlers from the 6a schools and only a quarter from those other 2 classes is not valid.

I'm absolutely sure that there are some valuable data in there somewhere, as soon as I can pick it out of the bipolar rap..LOL

I've just read through the thread again and I'm even more convinced that Cokely's original thought that 5a and 6a qualify too many compared to the other classes is completely erroneous. In fact it is just the opposite. 321a is too easy with such a small population base to support their 16 qualifiers. 4a and 5a are about the same. And all that stuff about 5a and 6a just being about self-esteem, hmmm. You guys were using the wrong denominator.

After reading what everyone has offered on the topic, I am beginning to reconsider my thinking. It probably is a good thing to segregate the classes, if for no other reason than to separate the opinions of who may be the best. back in the late sixties and early seventies, before grand state, there was a sort of informal grand state tournament at salina that the Missouri valley AAU (no USA wrestling then) hosted, the state champions from the (then) two different classes usually attended, and in the three years I went, I saw most of the state's great wrestlers compete head to head. It was a great money maker for the AAU and neat to be there, you could go and compete in the same bracket with the state's best without having to qualify! Now, if some USA wrestling club would put on an invitational like that,( maybe Salina) the guys that would want to could compete to see who was best and those content to be a champion in their class and let it go at that could stay home, and some club could make enough money to run their program the next year.
maybe that would make everyone happy. I think, upon retrospection, that everyone deserves a chance to wrestle in their own class, with their own peers, in peace. alas, leave it like it is.

uHHHH WHAT WAS THEM NUMBERS STUFF LOL

Thanks for your last post greenback66fan because this issue has no solution. But I can't let it pass when somebody says somebody's state title is meaningless because they are in 6a. I realize that in a lot of small Kansas towns wrestling is a big deal and that is great. These small schools have a lot of participation and it means a lot to be a wrestler from there. And some 6a schools can't field a full varsity team and that is a tragedy. But some 6a schools have 70 guys on their team and maybe 5 guys in some weight classes. So to say their varsity wrestler has to beat fewer guys to get to state is patently absurd. They already beat 4 other guys who could be the varsity wrstler for a lot of the 321a schools.

Come on Westphal and Bulldog Dad, it isn't that complicated. Cokely said qualifying 16/32 is no big deal. I'm saying qualifying 16/40000 is a bigger deal than qualifying 16/12000 like they do in 321a. Also, even I am not so stupid as to understand that some places in big cities have no wrestling tradition at all and shouldn't be included in my denominator. My only point is that a 6a or 5a state qualifier is no less worthy than a 4a or a 321a qualifier and this can be backed up by a simple look at the numbers.

Some kids in 4a win 4 or 5 matches to get third or fourth place. hey 5 and 6a has anyone ever qualified winning just 1 match. i am sure it happens all the time. hardly ever at the much tougher 321a and 4a 16 man brackets.

Naw I was just kidding, the fact is I been there and done that and I know there isnt a nats eyebrows worth of difference between the classes and the toughest teams I have ever gone against happened to be in 5A at the time. I don't need any numbers to tell me kids are kids and the finals are the finals.

agreed

Fan54,
Your argument is flawed. What you forget to account for is the greater number of sports opportunities for kids in bigger schools and the greater number of opportunities for activities in metropolitan areas. In smaller schools it is wrestling, basketball, or stay at home. In the KC area you have gymnastics, swimming, fencing, debate, karate, diving, basketball, year round baseball and lots of specialization. There is probably a fairly even number of wrestlers participating at all levels regardless of enrollment. Only 13 make varsity and there is usually not very much movement between jv and varsity so this eliminates many from wanting to participate in the larger schools. The records data recorded earlier speaks for itself. Too many weak wrestlers qualify for state in 5A and 6A because taking 50% of the participants is taking too many, you might as well invite them all and skip having regionals. Evaluate all of the other states, especially those with great wrestling traditions, and you will find no other state tournament with such a diluted talent pool.

On the topic that it is too easy to qualify for state in 5a- at the 112 valley center regional Banta (took 3rd last year at state) didn't even qualify. Tom McDonald who had a 27-12 record against the best competition in the state also failed to qualify. But if you go to some of the other 5a regionals in the state guys with losing records are qualifying. This needs to be balanced out so that the best wrestlers go to state.

Whine Whine Whine. I don't know the kid and he might be real good or you might just think he is good but he lost twelve times to somebody and just because you think he wrestled the best in the state doesn't mean some of those other kids didn't. You know the Newton Tourney, Basehor, Derby, and the Goodwill all include those weak 5 and 6A teams and if you look at the finishes they sure didn't wrestle like weak sisters. Maybe if some of these kids you say are so tough would have managed to get in the top four at their regionals they would have been wrestling this weekend. Its easy to say they wrestled tough people but man they managed to lose to a lot of them. Take care of business and all that whining doesnt have to happen so much.

My Bad I missread your post, you are standing up for the five and six A kids and in that regard I agree with you, sorry I should have read that post more carefully. I am old and sometimes miss the point lol.

The analysis is perfectly valid. It is Cokely's initial comment that qualifying 16/32 diminishes the glory of making it to state that is flawed. The denominator should be the talent pool from which those 16 are drawn. Frankly I was shocked to find out that 6a draws form a talent pool almost 4 times as large as 321a. The argument about more winning records in 4a and 321a is also meaningless because those records are largely (not exclusively) compiled within the class and therefore do not answer any questions about the relative quality of the qualifiers. As for there being so many more activities for kids from larger schools, the only Varsity sport in the winter in the state of Kansas that many large schools have that the small schools do not is boys swimming and diving. My whole point for these responses was to refute an absurd statement by Cokeley and others about the larger classes. The arguments they make about qualifying 16/32 vs 16/64 do not make sense, period.

Fan54 your an idiot, anyone could qualify at 5a and 6a. They are 10 times easier than 4a and 321a.

how can you call fan54 an idiot when there are twice as many kids in 5a & 6a schools compared to 321a, it's harder to even make a squad on 5 or 6a

Fan54,
Nothing I have stated is absurd. I can back up my case with facts. Where are your facts? The only thing that is absurd is a guy with a 7-17 record wrestling in the state tournament. At the top, all of the classes are even but when you get below the top 4, 5A and 6A are weaker than 4A or 321A. Top to bottom 5A and 6A are not as strong, generally speaking than the other two. Four state champs doesn't even make sense. Too many classifications exist in Kansas, face it. How can you be the champion but be one of four?