In the 1990's there dual record was 117-4!

I doubt they dualed any tough 6A teams like Manhattan or any teams from OK.

You're an idiot!

Not to get in an arguement, but Ark City is three miles from the border, and consistantly attends the Perry Tournament, wrestles in Stillwater, Blackwell, and several other OK. towns.
I have in front of me the All-time records for wrestling and am looking at the state championship schools from 1930-2001. Someone forgot to put Manhattan's name in here. Tell me again how tough they were. I'm hard of hearing.
Actually though, he didn't make me mad. I'm easy. :rolleyes:

didnt wellington have a pretty good team back in the early 1990s i know they were state champs in 1991

Wow Wayne Jackson is going to be surprised when he finds out that Buckbee coached at Ark City. Come on men get your stuff together. Wayne coached every single one of those great Ark City teams. Don't sell Hoxie, Norton, and St. Francis short here they all had teams in the mid to late sixties and early seventies that stand with the very best teams that ever took a mat in this state. Pudge Wilson, Jake Durham, and Pickenpaugh had them going up there then. I coached against Wayne and those Ark City teams and they were marvelous. Hey they were all very very good. Kapaun bought and paid for theirs so I don't really count them in this mix. They invented the word recruiting and perfected the scholarship.

Hasbeen is wrong. Wichita West did not dominate all year. In fact they were beaten the week before state by Maize in Regionals (It was also really surprising to see the West Fans fighting in the stands and getting tossed that day too) They also did not win the Tulsa Union Tourny. To be the best ever you have to win everything.

Also what about some of those Derby Teams of the 70s and early 80s? Heard they were pretty good.

*Prant's note: I was just kidding about the Ark City thing. I thought people would pick up on that in the original post.

Also, Hovpen, you got me. That was a very good burn. I'm now hanging my head in shame, as I have no snappy comeback. Big ups to you. (No ups to BigPin, still. He still can't take a joke)

Didn't Kapaun win the only two Grand State tourneys? Has anyone mentioned them? And if anyone knows, please tell me how dominant they actually were. Obviously it's a huge feat to win two Grand States.

Coach B - thanks for your input on the Goddard vs. Great Bend teams of 1999.

Yes, Goddard did place 2nd at Carrol that year but, if you recall, they did that with several key members out of the line-up, most notably, Jerod Lien who went on to win a state championship in an OT match with Great Bend.

Too bad they were not able to meet in a dual match huh? That woulda been exciting!!

The best team ever? I don't know about that, but in 1973 Atwood had 7 wrestlers in the finals of the state tournament. (2-1A). Five were champions and two runners-up.

126 Randy Wicke 1st
138 Lance Leebrick 2nd
145 Kevin Holle 1st
155 Jerry Lorimer 1st
167 Jeff Vap 1st
189 Doug Reinert 2nd
Hwt. Dave Brown 1st

They also won a tournament that year in Douglas against several schools in around Wichita, and won the NWKL League Championship. Intrestingly enough, they were not a dominate team in the NWKL. Most of the duals came down to heavy weight. This was normal for the NWKL at the time, and demonstrates the type of competition that has existed out her over the years.

Could'a been, Would'a been, Should'a been.
Looks like the been brothers are at it again.


Coach B., Lion Pride took your slash very well and
went it easy on you it appears, but I did not and will not.

You do not know what you are talking about and should therefor cork it. The Goddard '99 team was a great team; Ray Bordwell, Curtis Bordwell, Jake
Earl, Jarod Woodward, Andy Brine, Dustin Brown, Chris Laird, Justin Moody, Jason Martinez, Jared Lien, Bill Brine, Cody Beard, Mike Harrington and Matt Lang. From top to bottom, one of the best I have ever seen and I have been involved with wrestling for almost 40 years. Probable a better dual team than tournament team, but still a great tournament team. How good were they in terms of Kansas Wrestling? I do not know and I do not care.
You really cannot compare across time anyway so why try. I would never say that they were the best ever or even one of the best because that would be ridiculous and purely speculation. I could never back that up. For the Goddard '99 team just to be mentioned in the same breath with the greats of the past like Ark City, Kapaun, Emporia, Hoxie, St. Francis, Beloit, Norton, Abilene, Clay Center, Derby, etc. is an honor and a privilege and I will leave the discussion at that. But, I know one thing for sure and that is that they were clearly the best team in the state in their class in 99 and they proved it at state. State is still were you prove you are the best isn't it. Winning the state title still means something doesn't it. Great Bend had a very good team but absolutely were not better than Goddard even with the 2 "phantom wrestlers" that you spoke of. Everyone that knows anything about athletics knows that one of the biggest factors affecting success at any level is injuries and illnesses. All coaches and teams have to deal with it. We can only hope that we are at full strength at the right time and do everything in our power to make that happen. Any team from the past or present could say, "we would have been better if...", "we would have won if...", "what if...". We either wrestle with what we have at the time and hope and work to do our best and hold our heads high and not make EXCUSES or we hide behind them if we lose or we do not even compete at all because of fear of loss. When Lion Pride said that Goddard was undefeated, I am sure that he was talking about duals, 12-0 over some very good teams. They were 1st in every tournament but Bishop Carroll where they were 2nd to a very good Great Bend team. You use your vast knowledge of wrestling history to spout why Great Bend was the best and you use the Bishop Carroll tournament as your justification. But you failed to mention that Goddard was without R. Bordwell and Moody both state placers and state champ Lien at that tournament. Why did you do that if you know so much? Those three were worth 40-50 points and with them Goddard would have easily won the tournament. You also with your superior knowledge of history failed to mention that at state Goddard was without the full services of Beard who had his shoulder torn out 2 days before state by Brine in practice. Beard beat two of the placers at his weight earlier in the year and was a pinner worth ~20 points. Beard went ahead and represented his team but had to default out of the tournament. Goddard won the title I think easily without him and with him, you do the math. The kids before mentioned busted their rears to earn that title. They deserved it and proved it AT STATE. Why do you taint their efforts now? Why do you spit on their accomplishments and their history? I say that you owe them and their families an apology and if you do not think so than I say that you have no honor and that is all that I have to say about that.

RANDY LEMON

On another note, my vote for one of the best teams ever goes to Bishop Carroll 2002 and I am suprised that their name has not been served up yet.

Lemon

Calm down. I am not trying to taint anyone's effort. I am just saying they should not be mentioned in the same breath as some of those other teams (Beloit and Ark City). They were barely not "clearly" the best team in 5A that year. The teams that were spoke of earlier in this discussion were absolutely awesome. Goddard was very good but not absolutely awesome.

Also, I am sorry if you thought I was making "what ifs". I was telling you that they beat a team that was not full strength. As for research, I hated that class in college and I do not do it. I just remember Goddard could not win at Carroll.

As for Beard, I watched him wrestle many times in kids. I thought he looked like the Ohnmacht kid from Great Bend that Lein beat in the championship. He was very talented, but tell me this Randy, did Beard make it to state the next year or was he upset on the backside of the bracket at Regionals.

Randy one reason you cant compare teams is that when a lot of those teams were going strong you were a little kid in Oklahoma or somewhere while some of the rest of us were coaching against them or wrestling against them. We can though because we were actually there. You had a good team at Goddard but there have been lots of those in this state. No need to be insulted because people don't recognize them as the greatest team in the history of the state of Kansas.

BEETLEJUICE.BEETLEJUICE.BEETLEJUICE.

I think the Beliot team in 84, Kapaun in 85 or 86 and the 96 Ark city teams were great and are at the top of my list. I was impressed with the Bishop Carroll team last year: 190 pts., five state champs and 10 medalists. They were one of the best teams I have seen.
Addendum: Part of the fun of these forums is to compare the uncomparable otherwise there would be very little to comment on and even less to read. How fun would that be?

Coach B. and Overtime,

Please remember, I did not start the topic or bring up Goddard as a candidate, Lion Pride did.

Coach B., you may not have tried to taint Goddard's title, but you did. You basically said that they should not have won state. I told you why they should have and why they did. I responded to your slander as someone naturally would. Apparently you did not read all of my response because I overtly in my response stated that they should not be compared to the "greats"
of the past or present. Yes Cody Beard choked as a sophomore, but I fail to see what that has to do with the topic.

Overtime, I think that it is really crappy and below the belt that you reduce my response to me going to high school and college in Oklahoma. This is not about me, it is about Goddard '99 and the wrestlers on that team. I guess if you had your way, you would deport me. When I was a "little kid" in Oklahoma, I had the opportunity to compete in many Kansas tournaments and although I may not have seen all of your "greats" as you did, I was very familiar with Kansas wrestling. I spent much of my life here as many of my relatives live in Kansas right now as I write. When I was in high school we frequently competed against Kansas schools. We saw the Kapauns and the Ark Citys alot, they were always competing in Oklahoma tournaments and we respected them greatly. But again, this is not about me, it's about 14 kids that worked their rears off to win state. I knew that if I responded, I would be immediately attacked, but I think that those kids are worth the price.

I hope that I do not have to wipe anymore mud off of my face, but I realize that is a good possibility.

Yours in Education and Athletics,
Randy Lemon

Lemon;
It is just the self righteous way that you do it that makes it insufferable. Ok you win, wrestling started when you came into the state and it just wont be the same without you and I will never forget that amazing collection of wrestlers you had at Goddard. You should be a happy man.

Hey I started this post to talk about great state teams....so go back to that.

Now now, kids, let's settle down.

I'll put my $.02 in- Bishop Carroll was CRAZY good last year. I don't know if they were the best team ever, but I think you could make a case for them being in the top 5. Maybe it's because every single one if them is in some way a Sponsel, I don't know.

One reason I think those teams from Hoxie and Norton and Sainty were so tough historically was the calibre of competition that existed at the time. That league was at the apex of its toughness at that time. There were a lot of Big 8 wrestlers that came off those squads at that time. Heck Colby would win the Garden City tourney then and place last or next to last in the NWKL. At that time they didnt have a team in the league that wasn't state tough.

The '71 Hoxie team would get my vote-- You really can't measure the efforts of teams in later years , like the '92 Ark City team, by the amount of points scored, because back in the '70's There were no points scored for 5th and 6th places. If you look at 4th and above finishes, the domination exhibited by those two teams would be very close, except that Hoxie gets one more Champion. I believe that in 71 there were only two state championships-- so the case could be made that the competition was tougher. as far as individual quality, the old guys still have the edge, no one in Ks. that I know of has even come close to Winfield's Myron Roderick's NCAA and Olympic accomplishments, and certainly not his coaching record at OSU!

How many kids wrestled in high school in 1971 compared to 1992?