I didn't see the match. Usually the ref will call a stalemate in the second OT, and I think this would usually be the fairest call. I can see the need for a stalling call if a wrestler continues to go back to the leg. On the question of stalling, I thought the Salina paper on Saturday said Strait got called for stalling with just a few seconds left in regulation or would have won in regulation. Is this correct or did I read the article wrong?

the paper was correct...weishaar tried to switch strait and strait countered the switch with the double leg so he was on top and he needed to climb up the legs...the ref should've called a stalemate in that situation as both wrestlers were getting no where, but he called stalling on strait, thus tying it up at 3-all.

The problem is that the ref does not really have that option when a wrestler is down on the leg. He is obligated by rule to move up. It is his obligation and if he doesn't, by rule, he is to be called for stalling. I was one of the worst at yelling at officials when they were wrong but in this case, if he had called a stalemate he would have been making up a call that is not, in fact, the rule. You just can't have it both ways, you can't yell at them for not knowing the rules and then critisize them for applying them the way the rules state. That ref was right and if you know me, you know it takes a lot for me to say that sometimes and some of the refs that read this will be laughing out loud reading that I wrote it but in this particular case, like it or not, that ref was exactly right.

FRIST OF ALL I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT IT WAS A GREAT MATCH TO WATCH. STRAIT AND WEISHAAR ARE BOTH VERY GOOD. THERE WERE MANY QUESTIONABLE CALLS IN THE MATCH-UP BETWEEN PROBABLY THE TWO BEST 189LB KIDS IN THE STATE. WEISHAAR WAS ALSO CALLED FOR FLEEING THE MAT WHEN HE USED A MULE KICK TO GET AWAY AND IN THE PROCESS STEPPED OUT OF BOUNDS. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER OUTCOME IF THE DECISION WAS NOT DECIDED BY THE REF. BUT IF YOU WATCH MOST DOUBLE OVERTIMES THE KID ON THE BOTTOM TRIES TO GET AWAY AND THE OTHER KID TRIES TO HOLD ON. THATS HOW IT GOES. WEISHAAR HAD JUST TRIPPED STRAIT TO THE MAT. STRAIT STARTS TO CRAWL, NOT GET UP, TOWARDS OUT OF BOUNDS AND WEISHAAR IS CALLED FOR STALLING. I BELIEVE THAT IF WEISHAAR WAS CALLED FOR FLEEING THE MAT ON A MULE KICK FLEEING SHOULD ALSO BE THE CALL WHEN SOMEONE CRAWLS FOR THE EDGE. CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.

The point that is relevant here though, is that the stall call was made before Strait "crawled" out of bounds. There is not an "intending to flee the mat" call. The stall was there first and that is how he called it. Now had Witshar (sp I am sorry) reached up in that process somewhere and Strait had gotten out of bounds that call may have been appropriate but that just didn't happen in that order. The stall was there first and the intention of the wrestler which may have in fact been to flee the mat becomes irrelevant.

westfahl were you replying to me or another person?

Sorry I was replying to the one in all caps lol. I think it was White.

I guess on the stalemate possiblity I was replying to you lol it gets confusing doesn't it. That was an interesting turn of events rules wise but I think that kid made a right call there and it took a good official to get it sorted out. I know it was unpopular for a lot of people and I understand that completely but it looked right by rule.

I will try to keep this short. I think I could write a 2000 word essay on stalling. I started wrestling in 1967 when it was considered good wrestling to bar an arm, hook a leg and ride till the cows come home. They were still using riding clocks. They never called stalling. It was BORING! This year I lost track of the number of times I saw kids on bottom, one or two points behind in the third period, called for stalling! These weren't situations where the kids were just trying not to get pinned. They were still in the match with a chance to win. They were just being rode tough and they couldn't get up. Saturday a kid on top was two points behind with less than 30 seconds left and he was called for stalling for not trying to turn his opponent. I guess the official thought he just wanted to lose by two points. I think we've gone too far. We are asking our officials to be judges instead of referees. I don't want their opinion. I want them to interpret rules that should be black and white. This thread is a perfect example of what happens when we ask our officials to be judges instead of referees. Westfahl and someoldguy were watching the exact same match as I was. However, I saw it completely diffrently. I thought the official blew the call at the end of regulation, and I thought he missed it at the end of overtime. I could care less who won, but when he blew his whistle I thought he was going to call the kid on the bottom for crawling off the mat. While the man on top wasn't working for a fall, he wasn't blatantly stalling. If I understand the rules correctly, they are diffrent in a sudden death period than they are during regulation time. I agree with Westfahl about the referee in this match. I remember him from the kids wrestling and he is a very good referee. We asked this official to decide who won this match, and it shouldn't happen. We need to come up with some concrete rules as to what is stalling and what is not.

Hi Marty I remember you didnt you wrestle for Douglas when I was the head coach at Caney Valley? I think you wrestled some of our kids if I am thinking clearly. I think it was a hard call but in my minds eye of that moment I think he was nailing him for not working up off the leg for the second time. The rules on that are pretty clear I think and I think what people are not realy seeing is that Strait, while intending to flee the mat didn't get far enough to do it before time ran out in the refs mind on the working up issue. All in all it makes for a controversy but I can see exactly where the ref was coming from when he made the call. Course if you remember me and Province chewing on officials back when you were in school, I know it sounds rediculous for me to be defending a referee lol.

marty...i am with you though in one aspect...i do think that he blew that call at the end of regulation as well...

I think that Straight (or however you spell it) got a lucky call. I saw him trying to craw out of bounds and the other kid trying to pull him back in. That's not stalling, he just wanted to keep the kid in bounds. Ridiculous call...

If Weishaar was called for stalling in that situation, it was probably the wrong call. In the finals of last year's NCAA tournament, Tommy Rowlands of Ohio State won the heavyweight championship over Steve Mocco of Iowa in exactly the same manner — each time Mocco stood up, Rowlands dropped to a leg and hung on until a stalemate was called.
The judgement in a stalling call in this situation has to be weighed with format of the overtime; by rule, the top man's job is to ride the guy out for 30 seconds, while the bottom guy is supposed to escape. For that reason, stalling on the top man would have to be pretty blatent to be called. And from what I've seen of Jake Weishaar over the years, he's not that kind of wrestler. While I didn't see the match, it doesn't sound like the right call to me.

By the rule book it was the right call. Not popular but the book makes no distinction on that position between overtime and regular time. It does say that the top man must work up. He did it twice, he could have reached up occaisionally and made it look good but he didn't. Sometimes you have to know how to creatively stall and when you don't you leave the ref no choice but to do his job, which he did.

By the way as of two years ago, the last time I heard, there were over 80 different rules interpretations and points of emphasis between high school and collegiate wrestling so it is difficult to relate them sometimes I think.

I saw the match, and this was an absurd stalling call. Strait did stand up twice. The first time Weishaar (spelling) dropped to a leg, drove and delivered Strait out of bounds. The second time Strait stood, Weishaar dropped to a leg, front tripped and landed on him. Within 2 seconds of delivering Strait, Weishaar was called for stalling for not moving up the leg.
This was an incorrect call because the rule book says so( I beleive it is in the case book). It says that in double overtime if a the top wrestler is simply holding on to a leg, a stalemate should be called the first time. The second time a stalling should be called. There was 8 seconds left in Double OT, and I doubt a second time would have happened.

True there is a case for the intentional dropping ot a leg. Of course that is a completely different application than we are talking about here. Whenever, and wherever a wrestler finds himself on the legs of another he is obligated by rule to move up. He did it twice, he was told to move up, he didnt, he got penalized for it. That is a totally different deal then the intentional drop to a leg which is the rule you are citing. All the normal rules of stalling apply in a match. The rule you state applys to the technique of simply dropping to the ankle and holding on. Nobody is saying he did that, he was countering a stand up but that still does not relieve him of the responsibility of moving up. He still has to do that whenever and wherever he finds himself on the legs.

Coach Westfal, I did wrestle for Douglass from 74 to 78. I spent most of my time wrestling JV behind Richard Frakes. The only time I remember wrestling a Caney athlete was my junior year when I went up to 132 from 119 so I could wrestle varsity. I wrestled a Jackson (first name ?). The final score of the match resembled a basketball score, and I lost. My dad still claims the scorekeeper lost track in the middle of all the rolling around! I do remember his arms were almost as long as my body.

BTW, this thread is why I can get to rambling when we are talking about stalling. We have some folks who seem to have some good knowledge of wrestling and the rules, and we still can't come to an agreement on whether there was stalling or not!

lolll Hi Marty long time no see. You were darn good though as I remember it the rest of us would have stolen you. Wrestling behind Richard was a bad deal for sure and you were as good as most everybody elses varsity guys. That was George Jackson the son of the referee you know and a heck of a leg wrestler. I remember that match. Seems to me you came into regional with a short record because of Richard and did pretty well indeed. Nice to hear from you man.

You know what the problem is these guys arent as good at stalling as Province and I made you guys lol. You got to know how to do it.