All:

For all those who have served and those who are serving now, thank you. My thoughts and prayers go out to you.


Tim Shea
Major, USA (ret)

Tim, just posted this article written by Aaron Sweazy on the Other board. Appropriate here as well.

HARDLY A WAR

For those that love a rivalry there is nothing better than beating your bitter foe. But, one thing is for certain the atmosphere will be electric every year regardless of what side of the mat you’re rooting from. Even in victory or defeat you are sure to see one exciting evening of matches with a bit of everything from the dominating to the disappointing, which brings me to another matter at hand. I was disappointed the other day when I read something that caught my eye on an Internet message board in regards to wrestling competition that occurred at a recent National Level event. Some anonymous person left on a message board that they thought two wrestlers that were to wrestle in the National Finals at Fargo, ND were going to have a war.

I don’t know how many veterans are out their reading this, but being young is no excuse for ignorance, and I apologize as the son of two military veterans for some derelict making that statement. The notion that some fool would even think of calling a wrestling competition a war is asinine. Back in 1962 the Chapman-Abilene (Kansas) high school rivalry finally made it’s way to the wrestling mats. At the beginning of this wrestling rivalry there was a little war going on called Vietnam, in which many of America’s best never came home from alive. Fast-forward to 2004 where just down the road at nearby Ft. Riley 26 lives have already been claimed in the current conflicts over in Iraq. While Chapman and Abilene have had some great skirmishes on the mat, they were far from a war.

When Oklahoma State’s Steve Mocco and Minnesota’s Cole Konrad took on each other in this past years NCAA finals both competitors left alive and well with one side victorious and the other feeling the tranquility of defeat. I think it’s pretty safe to say no matter the outcome of a war there are no real winners on any side. Many of our young men and women are still overseas and had to leave behind new spouses, babies, and the simple luxuries we take for grated behind. Some of these soldiers may return fit as a fiddle, while others may suffer wounds of war and be changed forever. But lest we forget the ones that we will never truly get the chance to give our appreciations to; the ones that lost their lives fighting for us only to return home to be carried by fellow troops and have their caskets robed in the great American flag.

Regardless of what happens when you go to watch a fierce competition, whether your team wins or loses, know that we would not get to enjoy them if it weren’t for those heroes that stood up for the colors of the Red, White, and Blue through all these years. When you look up at the American flag, I hope you think about what I said. I hope seeing the flag makes you think of those who may have died serving our country and left behind a young family, and it makes you realize just how fragile life truly is.

I'm pretty sure it's just a metaphor.

thematforums - Wrestling is War!

And the topic as a whole was not well received "on the Other board".

Notice the people that had the biggest beef with it too were from Missouri? Maybe they are mad that most of the MU lineup isn't even from MU perhaps? Of course its a metaphor. Kansas is the home of Veteran's Day as it was founded in Emporia. As for not being well received, there have been people on this forum guilty of that infraction themselves!

Where did you come up Veterans Day founded in Emporia?

The history provided by the link below does not mention Emporia.

The History of Veterans Day

KSNT 27 News out of Topeka mentioned that it was formerly known by another name and now everyone has followed Emporia's lead and celebrates Veteran's Day as what it is known today.

Wat an over looked aspect of the Country.

I dont really care if u dont "agree" with the war in Iraq.

Nut dont disrespect our veterens, the same veterens that gave u the freedom to be complete imbasoles, by bashing the war that they r fighting in. Noone is this country should not support our troops. If the president makes the desion to stick up for a country whos leader was killing, and raping inncoent civilians, u back his desion and pray everyday for our boys.

My brother will be departing dor Iraq in December. There is no question who I will be dedicating my wrestling season to this year. He is my hero. He's my hero for the simple fact that he doesnt want to be my hero. His hero are the boys that give their life to this beautiful country that gives us the freedom to wrestle.

I stand up to u, u veterens. Every last one of u are my hero.

Who was bashing the war on this thread? I said that wrestling shouldn't be compared to a war.

oo not to u..

to "those kinda" of americans...

u knwo wat i meen.

i was very intriged by ur aticle.

oo not to u..

to "those kinda" of americans...

u knwo wat i meen.

i was very intriged by ur aticle.

Aaron - I actually really liked your article. statebound08- you are confusing me. RichardDSlayer - you are mistaken. Call Emporia State University and they will tell you all about it. Emporia is very proud of this fact and rightly so. I have included the details below:
"In Emporia, Kansas, on November 11, 1953, instead of an Armistice Day program, there was a Veterans' Day observance. Ed Rees, of Emporia, was so impressed that he introduced a bill into the House to change the name to Veterans' Day. After this passed, Mr. Rees wrote to all state governors and asked for their approval and cooperation in observing the changed holiday. The name was changed to Veterans' Day by Act of Congress on May 24, 1954. In October of that year, President Eisenhower called on all citizens to observe the day by remembering the sacrifices of all those who fought so gallantly, and through rededication to the task of promoting an enduring peace. The President referred to the change of name to Veterans' Day in honor of the servicemen of all America's wars."

Since you like to list links, I have included the link:
http://www.patriotism.org/veterans_day/

Some more information about Veteran's Day and Emporia. Below is a link to the copy of the actual proclamation declaring Emporia Kansas as the founding city of Veteran's Day

http://veterans.house.gov/legislation/108/hcr159b.html

Wow links to validate that Swayz was basing his comment on appropriate information, also a comment to show that some don't like Veterans on The Mat, if Salyer visits that on a frequent basis, and I am sure he does, then he knows there are a lot of trolls that hate American, God and Republicans. Not trying to be political here but that is the reality of The Mat. It seems as if whatever stance you take, especially a pro American perspective, that someone will quickly bash you. Those individuals on the mat doing so, at least many of them that got the trolling started, are in those circles.

I think that anyone reading too much in to the Swayz article is mistaken. The article was an attempt, and I personally believe a good one, to show that on all days, especially Veterans Day, we should have a deeper appreciation of our veterans. I personally hold the comment equivalent to telling your kid not to say their "starving" when they sit down to eat because they're really not. Wrestling is not really "war."

Couple of points, as one who writes, I appreciate the reminder that words mean things so therefore, we need to work at using the right words. I am the last on the planet to believe in the general practice of "Political Correctness." That being said, I also believe that out of respect that we don't devalue certain concepts. I also know this, out of respect to the men and women who serve our country, I'll personally try to be a little more mindful of not calling wrestling a "war." A battle, or something else maybe, but hopefully not a "war." Why will I make the effort to do this? Simply because it will remind me to give even more respect to those who serve our country.

How do we know the "stance" taken or criticisms aren't some attempt at humor? Not everyone uses a smiley graemlin when trying to be funny. Instead they leave the interpretation up to the reader. I have to admit I laughed when reading a few of the posts. So, the humor was deprecating at Aaron's expense, he's a big boy and can handle it.
As to the issue at hand, I worry less about the person who describes wrestling as a war, and more about the person who doesn't say so, but thinks wrestling IS war.

Sportsfan02, I have no doubt that some of the comments on The Mat are legitimate. However, for many of those pushing the issue on The Mat like 1/4 pound and a few others all you have to do is a search of posts by the individual and you will quickly see that I am speaking the truth on this issue. The web site is http://www.themat.com the link to search individuals there is http://www.thematforums.com/myforum/?search_forums=true

I would challenge to do a search on 1/4 pound, thrinmo, icyhotstunta, KCCM, and others who are doing most of the negative talk. I will quote one of those individuals in part to help prove my point,

Quote by 1/4 pound, you can stick that purple heart up your ***. they are handed out a dime a dozen and everyone knows that, it's right up there with the national defense medal. yeah that whole abu grhaib ****, was an isolated incident. get real... now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying everyone is like that. but **** yeah that crap is rampant especially among the younger troops. i am informed... not full of ****, and speak the truth.

coach r, you and mr. john kerry are my hero.


Other comments are trollish in their behavior.

Am I sure that Swayz can take it? You bet, but to imply that the message was not well received needs clarification. Clarification from the fact that the overwhelming majority of those making those "not well received" comments are in reality trolls who fit the discription of what I stated. I will also quote another individual on the forums who summend I think up the perspective that Swayz was trying to bring out quite nicely.

quote by Coach R: After I came home from Viet Nam I had a couple of beers and a conversation with my father and a couple of uncles about this topic. Dad had retired after 26 years as an Air Force NCO, serving in WWII and Korea. One uncle was on the Saratoga. Another was with the 1st Inf - he always said he took a cruise to Normandy and then walked to Germany. A third was finished with his service after Gualalcanal.

The consensus of the discussion was that it cheapened what vets had done to have sporting events, political campaigns, used car sales, etc. compared to war. They didn't complain about it - they just felt it.

I think language shapes thought. When you allow something to become common, it effects how it is perceived and thought of.

Thrinmo - sorry if that sounds too bleeding heart liberal for your sensibilities, it's just the way I see things. As for 1/4 pounder - I challenge you to produce those people who are in the service to "get their jollies killing sand -iggers". I suspect that either 1. You got your leg pulled by some people in their cups who wanted to do a little macho bragging. or 2. You're so full of **** your eyes are brown.

As for sissies - I'll match my purple hearts against your bronze medal in the Middle School wrestling tournament any day.

Again, go to the mat do a search and find out what kinds of comments these individuals make who are being critical of the post. Frankly, I am glad that I differ with those trolls on this particular issue.

As for how service men or those that have lost loved ones in war feel about these types of comparison, I know all too well from personal experiences. Am I saying I’m not guilty of the same example? Certainly not, I am guilty, but I will for one try to be more careful and respectful in the future.

I realize in closing that some of the comments by some, may be an attempt at humor, but on Vet's day, I wouldn't think that joking about the purple hearts that men have won, and given their lives for is very funny. I guess I am from the old school, that there are just some things you don't joke about. Men dying in war is one of them.

Thank you for the links to the supporting information. As a proud Kansan and supporter of all Veterans, of which there are several in my family, I have learned additional information about Kansas history.

One could hardly suggest, based on the following,

that the question is a mistake. The purpose of the question was to seek factual information to support the original statement.

Richard, as one who has had disagreements in the past, I must acknowledge, good job here. I for one appreciate your honesty in the response. Have a great day. Really.

I do appreciate the respect the author of “Hardly a War” expresses for veterans. I also agree that a wrestling match is not “really a war”. However, I disagree that comparing war and wrestling is "asinine", "disrespectful", or "foolish".

Carl Von Clausewitz in On War, Chapter 1, "What is War?" defines war through the analogy of two wresters. He writes:

We shall not enter into any of the abstruse definitions of war used by publicists. We shall keep to the element of the thing itself, to a duel. War is nothing but a duel on an extensive scale. If we would conceive as a unit the countless number of duels which make up a war, we shall do so best by supposing to ourselves two wrestlers. Each strives by physical force to compel the other to submit to his will: his first object is to throw his adversary, and thus to render him incapable of further resistance.

As a veteran, I have often discussed war with my sons, especially with my older son that is considering entering the armed forces. To help try and explain the mental aspect of war, I have often associated war with wrestling. For example, in battle, it is the side that has trained harder, fights smarter, and ultimately has the will to overcome their opponent at the point of decision. Often it is the personal will of the commander or leader that presses his men far beyond what they think they are capable of to overcome adversity and defeat the enemy.

A wrestling match has similar characteristics. Often it is the wrestler that has trained harder, wrestles smarter, and is mentally tougher than his opponent that has his hand raised at the end of the match. Many times it is at the point of decision, when two wrestlers are scrambling for a takedown or a reversal, that one wrestler mentally submits. It is at this point, that a wrestler can feel that his opponent is mentally broken and start pouring it on in a series of moves routing (a military term) his opponent.

Why it may seem strange to some (at least my wife thinks it is odd), I have often used Clausewitz, the principles of war, and other military concepts to relate wrestling strategy to my sons. Of course they role their eyes when I pause the match tape to get on my soap box (they have heard each analogy a 100 times).

I appreciate the author’s point being made in "Hardly a War", but this is just one veteran that has no problem with someone calling a “wrestling match” a “war”

Mike Flynn

Alot of great posts on this issue.

I never thought about using the word war until this very minute. It made me think about the issue and what war really is to me. I thank you for making me realize that I am one that uses war to easily and now from here on out I will always think of our vets when the word war is used.

War to me now carries new meanings- the most important one being remembering the past soldiers and what they have given me