I was recently looking back at the Grand state programs from 1975 and 1976. I found several names that have been mentioned in other threads recently as great wrestlers who won GS.
Doug Duell Goodland 119
Tom Alstrom Oberlin 145
Roy Oeser KMC 167
Henry Madden Atchison County 185
I also found a couple of current coaches who won
Kirk Baker 132 Goodland
Dan Schmidt TMP 126
some of the matches were awesome including one where 35 points were scored in 6 minutes.

35 points in six minutes is not impressive, it is sloppy wrestling. That's middle school stuff. I bet a bunch of Daylighters were used.

Kit,

First of all, Congratulations on your program there at Baldwin. You have done an outstanding job & are a great advocate & leader for our sport taking the reins in things such as rankings, event & camp co-ordinating. I enjoyed watching you & Jay compete at a high level in High School. I wanted to address your reply to this post. Can you explain to me how this dual State is to play out?? I would imagine you'd take the top 3 or 4 dual teams from each classification in the State to compete. Will they compete in a dual or tourney setting & How many teams will they actually dual if that is the case? Although I can't fully say, as I don't yet know all the details of your proposal ; I kinda think the Grand State Event would still have more widespread involvement & serve as a better spectacle for the fans & create the " Big Event" for the media etc. to draw more interest to our sport from the curious in these times where they are talking of cutting programs. The Grand State would encompass our states very best individual match-ups which is what the public wants to see. It would bring in more folks & individual athletes/schools who have top placers... from all outlaying communities across the State whose loyal fans would be more inclined to attend because they may have one of their locals involved & feel like it hits closer to home with them. I do applaud your efforts in this dual proposal but I have to think that it was just that (Proposal) in that if people can actually see the possibility that one /or other of these events could actually come to fruition then you will see more feedback & involvement & I think that the Grand State proposal would be choice for most. Please don't turn your back to this idea yet either... as it would greatly benefit wrestling in Kansas. Keep up the great work & continued success! Kevin Calhoon

.Does any one know if reserved seating can be purchased for East/ West Classic ?

Kit:

Sounds great Kit. Glad to hear Dual State goes back in front of the board again.
>Might want to throw this in, too:
>
>Iowa's State Duals were supposed to be last Saturday, March 2, but they were
>postponed due to the weather until Monday, March 4. The tournament still managed to
>draw 4,700 people to the finals on a Monday night -- the Monday of the first
>day of the girls' State basketball tournament in Des Moines.
>
>Good luck with things, and let me know if I can be of any help.

Always,
Jeff Holmes
Immaculata
>

If you want to see more information on the Dual State proposal, the information that Kit originally sent to me is still posted on the Kansas Wrestling website. You can find it under the "General" or "High School" sections, or click here to go directly to the proposal.

Kit, if any of this information is no longer current, let me know and I'll update it.

One other thing using an old Iowa experience and I swear I'll stop...

About 20-some years ago, when girls' basketball in Iowa was first divided into classes (Iowa has a seperate organization for girls' high school sports from boys'), they tried an "unified" State tournament. Four teams qualified for State in each of four classes. Tuesday through Thursday, they played off to decide each of the four class championships. On Friday and Saturday they had their "Grand State." It was a competitive and financial disaster.

The girls' state basketball tournament in Iowa had -- for 50 years at that point -- been the most successful State tournament of the winter sports, averaging 12,000 fans per game for six days. The Grand State experiment dropped attendence for the last two days in 1980 and 1981 to less than half that. After two years, the Iowa Girls High School Athletic Union realized that they'd blew it; they went back to the old way of doing things, everyone was happy and they again made money.

Just some food for thought...

I just finished reading the proposal from the link that Mike Juby posted this morning & do admittedly like the proposal. I do in fact think these would also be well recieved events that the fans would enjoy. I especially like that they would take place in lieu of the league Tourneys which have in many cases lost their luster. You can't argue with the fact that they would be a bigger draw & fan friendly YET, ...I still can't help but think how great it would be to have a Grand State event (with or without the KSHSAA involvement) a week later that pits top overall individuals.... & for the moneys generated to filter back to the State Kids Organization as it serves as the feeder for the snowball effect in our sport and & to the In State Wrestling Colleges for scholarships to help ensure that we keep our programs in place & our wrestlers at home. All I'm trying.. I guess to say while we're talking about food,.. is that not only would the Grand State be GRAND, but also that there is PIE out there to be ate for whoever is willing to step up to the plate. Lets help out our colleges to help us get to the next level by giving them more funds to use for IN STATE college wrestling scholarships. AND By the way Gangreen that Girls PumpkinBall event in Iowa has nothing to do with us.... I am from Kansas & want nothing but success for Wrestling in this State & have to respectfully disagree with you that an event of this caliber wouldn't work also & be very beneficial to us. Ala Mode

I first want to make clear that many people were involved in the Dual State proposal that was started two years ago. My name seems to get attached to it most, and I guess that is primarily b/c I was KWCA president at that time and was coordinating meetings, submitting the proposals, etc. But it in no way was it "my" idea. Many deserve credit (or blame?!?). I was simply one person in a room full of coaches from all levels and all areas of the state discussing the details, pros/cons, etc.

In regards to dual state vs. grand state, the KWCA board wanted to discuss the possibility of adding one of these major events. We realized we could ask for one, but not both, and thus needed to choose. We all felt both would be great events. We decided, however, that a dual state had a much higher chance of approval, for a variety of reasons. One was the Grand State was once attempted and was disbanded. It is also something other sports could want and we felt the KSHSAA would be unlikely to pass it for fear of "opening up a floodgate."

But with a dual state, few (if any) sports compete in two completely different formats as wrestling does (perhaps tennis?). We felt this was something that wrestling could ask for w/out the KSHSAA having fear of other sports asking for a "second state tournament."

Also, many other states have a dual state (I believe 21 of the 47 wrestling states, something like that?) and all had extremely positive comments on the event. However, I don't know if any have a Grand State in the way we would be proposing it (after the ind. class state tournaments). Some states (like California) have only one state tourney (thus a grand state in that regard). We didn't know of any that had ind. class state tourneys, followed by a grand state. We felt it would be easier for us to go to the KSHSAA and be able to say, "look these other states have a dual state and love it, they say it makes money, is simple to operate, and gives more kids recognition for wrestling success as a kid who can not otherwise qualify for a state-level event can now do so if he is on a winning team." We weren't sure we could say all of these arguments with a Grand State.

If it is a "Grand State" Kansas wants, perhaps we should push for one state tourney: with regionals, followed by 3-1A/4A/5A/6A "qualifiers," followed by grand state. That way kids could still lay claim to being one of the "best in 4A" (or whatever their class is) but we could also then have a true state champion for each weight class. That is not a bad thought to pursue.

We could then also have our ind. class dual state for schools to compete against others their size in a dual format.

However, it sounds like a major change, and that takes many years, many arguments, many proposals, many meetings, etc. It would mean that wrestling is doing their own state series, different from every other sport. I am not sure how well the KSHSAA would receive that.

I don't know what the answer is, these are just some thoughts. What I do know is that currently the high school coaches continue to show overwhelming support for the dual state proposal (with only a few dissenters so far). And as long as this is the case then the KWCA board will work to act on their wishes.

Hope this helps provide some info. for the discussion.

Regards,
Kit Harris

There will never ever be another Grand State Tourney sponsered by the KSHSAA. The reason is simple. It was a raging success and the basketball tourney was a huge flop. The Grand State drew more people than any other single day event in Kansas history and the wrestling was unbelievable. The national association as well as the state association is dominated by former basketball coaches. Ain't no way they would let that happen again. They can blame it on anything they want but they cant say it was not a big success. Heck the second and last one drew 6000 to the finals in the biggest blizzard Hays has ever seen. I know that because my car was buried in the back of the Holiday Inn. The big schools dominated the basketball tourney and the wrestling tourney was a crowd pleaser. The state couldnt handle that. I know because I was there and so were many of you. The rest is just politics.

I would just like to reiterate what Kit Harris has said concerning the Dual State Proposal. This was not one person's idea, but a collective one among the wrestling coaches of Kansas. This also was not an over-night decision, but one that was put together after two years of studying and surveying. I agree that a Grand State is an excellent idea and has been tried and proven, but it still only serves the great individuals. I honestly believe that coaches, including myself, felt that the Dual State would be more far-reaching. The individuals have already had their glory. What about the kid who's on a good team and never makes it to state? That type of kid, who paid his dues just like everyone else, will finally get that thrill of participating in a State competition. Thus, the Dual concept will reach out to more young men in the state of Kansas, and the last time I checked, that is what we are all about.

Doug Moore

Coach Moore:

Thank you for summing it all up so well. That is exactly what Kansas, the KWCA and KSHSAA is all about. We can debate the other stuff until we're blue in the face; it's about ALL the kids.

Regards,
Jeff Holmes
Immaculata High School

I am flat tired of the fact that some of you coaches seem to need to belittle the thought of a Grand State Wrestling event taking place. The excuse you use, Mr. Moore, that this would be a more far reaching event that would reward those 3 or 4 wrestlers from an elite team who themselves didn't qualify for the State Tourney is not a statement that I, or many others will NOT buy into. You state that this is what it is all about... is the wrestlers. What is actually of most importance for many of you coaches is your ego. Those non-qualifiers who have been fortunate enough to have been on those teams are likely also to have better coaches working with them & are likely surrounded with good wrestlers to compete against day in & day out & know a tradition of excellence associated with their schools team. They will most likely have a much better chance at stepping it up to qualify that next year than someone from a school that doesn't have those surroundings. So your premise is nonsense that they need to be rewarded because they didn't qualify but were on a great team because if we wanted to reward all competitors possible then how bout a State for JV or say perhaps those Seniors who have competed but not on Varsity etc. Which is really more important to you ....kudos to you to that you are the bomb to your fellow coaches.. or an event that would draw more interest for our sport & recognize those.. (yes INDIVIDUALS), for example last years Ryan Phillips, Holton or Rocky Baptisto, a Native American from Horton.. who are maybe 1 or 2 from their school to qualify & place at State. In these cases, .. Those followers of our sport from Jackson or Brown County would be more inclined to go to an event such as Grand State which includes someone they are familiar with. This is just one example & thus would create a much bigger spectacle & have greater attendance than one suppoting only 8 or 16 teams. That point cannot be argued with. There would also be those that would go to a Grand State because the fans (* all across the State*)know they are getting the very best possible match-ups & it also is creating the INDIVIDUAL david vs Goliath match-ups. As long as those few of you in our Sport who feel that your ego is more important than the good of this Sport in Kansas continue to knock down what is a good idea then I will continue to respond. I have stated that a dual State in lieu of the League Tourneys would be a better draw & good for our Sport. But....I still continue to believe whole-heartedly that a GRAND STATE EVENT whether or not supported by the KSHSAA would 1) bring more recognition to this sport /from many who are unfamiliar 2) could be an event that could provide stability & scholarships to our in-state wrestlers to compete with them at the next level. That cannot be argued with either. Mr. Moore & Mr. Holmes, I think we know what you want.... maybe you & a few of your colleagues should merely take a hard look at what is in the VERY BEST INTEREST FOR KANSAS WRESTLING. Is it that you fear the masses will prefer to have a Grand State rather than the Dual State event ? The bottom line is this.. Do I HONESTLY BELIEVE that a GRAND STATE event can draw 6,000 wrestling crazed fans again as Mr. Westphal stated, as well as a curious few who may get involved in our growth & most importantly BENEFIT KANSAS WRESTLING ?? The answer is most definitely YES & YES. That is why this is important to not only me but once again MORE IMPORTANTLY to.....KANSAS WRESTLING. Thus I am sorry if I insulted anyone's ego !

Whoa!! I just want to go on record that I was simply refering to the Grand State and the value I remember in it as well as the reasons that I believe it failed to be renewed. I am equally enthusiastic about the dual state tourney. It has been successful in many states and would be here as well. I didnt mean to get in the middle of any debate of one versus the other as I am not currently coaching and I don't really know what conversations are currently taking place on these issues. I have never believed that the KSHSAA really had any interest in promoting wrestling as a major sport in this state even though it obviously is and has been for many many years if not decades. Look how hard the fight was to get medals for fifth and sixth place and that was a very easy thing to do if they really had the interest of the kids at heart. There are many good people on both sides of this issue, lots of great coaches who I know are NOT as self serving as they have been described in some of the posts here. All I know is that if there were some people in high offices of the state and national that were not former basketball coaches a lot of this stuff would be a non-issue. I mean the guy that started the state association and the national association was a basketball coach and I challenge you to find many if anyone in the state office now that was not in that position. I am not saying they do a bad job I am just saying they have no real love for this game like those of us who have sweat on the mat in anger.

Oh yeah by the way. Doug Moore is a friend of mine and I didnt think he deserved to be slandered like that in print. He's not that devious even if he is from Oakley.

I am not hoping to win a popularity contest or lay claim to who I know in wrestling circles. It is my intention to speak on this issue that I believe in. That is all. I'm sorry but I think 1) the dual state is being pushed more by a select few 2)wonder why the Grand State has not also been proposed as it has been a proven success 3) the dual event would not serve to be more far reaching to the masses comparitive to the Grand State & 4) if the 2 events were surveyed & stacked up side by side that the Grand State would be more beneficial to Kansas Wrestling & the choice of the Kansas Wrestling Community. I personally would like to see both events take place each year. And Mr. Westfahl, ...just because I continue to defend my stance & am honestly stating my opinion that I feel that the dual event is as much for the coaches as anything,.. That does not mean it is my intention to hurt anyone's feelings or slander their name. I am fully aware of many of the successes of many of the names associated with the dual proposal & recognize that. ...In closing what I have to say is merely my heartfelt belief that our state can greatly benefit from a Grand State event. All this because I believe ....The interest I serve is bigger than myself. Am I wrong for this ?

Mr. Calhoun;
I hope I spelled your name right I am bad at that. I agree with you about the Grand State Tourney. It was a wonderful event, it would promote wrestlers to colleges around the country, it was the greatest single sporting event I have ever seen in Kansas High School athletics. You are absolutely right about your passion for this event and I wish I didn't know exactly why it was scuttled (and that is exactly the right term for it) but I do and I know that they will never let something that good happen again. I believe that the coaches are trying to get something they feel they can get and in their passion they are coming up with their best reasons for why they want it because in their hearts they know what I know, that Grand State is (saddly) a dead issue with the people that can allow it to happen. That is by design not accident. I applaud you for your passion to wrestling and you are not wrong. I was kidding and Doug a lot about the slander deal, he doesnt need me to defend him and I wanted to get a little shot in fun at Oakley. Keep dreamin my man that is how the Grand State happened in the first place.

Mr. Calhoon,
I would like to respond to a few of your concerns you have expressed.

I feel your claim that a DS is being pushed by a "select few" can be statistically proven incorrect. In numerous coaches polls done by the KWCA, overwhelming support has been shown for the DS proposal (so far it has ranged from 96% to 100% with usually well over 100 "yes" votes with between 0-3 "no" votes). As long as this is the case, the KWCA will continue its efforts as it has (which may or may not be successful, who knows, but we are trying). If this support changes, then perhaps we can consider another proposal, but that is yet to be the case. It is the duty of all KWCA officers, in my opinion, to act on behalf of the entire coaches group. They can't and shouldn't act otherwise. If they did, they would be mishandling their position.

In regards to why a GS has not also been proposed. . .it has. Both were brought up, discussed and thought through, and the general consensus (again shown through polls) was the DS had a much better chance of passing. I recall positive comments being said about both events, but all seemed to be in agreement the GS was very unlikely to gain approval (for numerous reasons). We felt it much wiser to ask for something we had a chance to get, as opposed to wasting time and effort towards something we agreed we could not (and hopefully we are not wasting our time with the DS proposal. . .I would hate to see that, many have worked very hard). But that is why the DS route was chosen.

In regards to your claim that a GS would serve more. . .as far as fans, I think both would draw and entertain large crowds. As far as kids participating. . .a GS of 16 wrestlers in 14 weights would provide an event for 224 wrestlers, all who have had much spotlight all season and probably most of their wrestling lives. A DS of 16 teams per class with 14 wrestlers per team could serve 896 wrestlers, many who have not had much spotlight, but are an important part of our sport just as well. I very much like coaching those kids (the ones who don't win all that much). I admire their daily effort and I get excited when they do accomplish their goals (maybe their first win, a medal, etc.) That is truly one of the joys of coaching and working with youth, it is one of the reasons why I do what I do. But I support an event that involves 896 kids over one that involves 224.

As far as what the entire Kansas wrestling community would support more, who knows, I really don't know how we could ever determine that statistic. Perhaps there is a way but I think it would be tough. But I do know that the KSHSAA only hears proposals from administrators or the KCA via the KWCA. That is why the proposal has come from that organization. If both issues were put before the entire wrestling community, I could see never-ending arguments for both events lasting quite some time.

Kevin, I respect your opinions and admire your enthusiasm for our great sport, however I would like to say I think this forum (provide by the cooperation of the KWCA and USAW-KS) ought to be used for respectful discussion of ideas, thoughts, debates, etc. But at all times maintaining fair treatment of everyone involved, personal attacks are best left out. I feel you have been treated rather respectfully by those posting their views and would like to encourage you to do the same. We are all on the same team here with the same ultimate goal in mind. . .promoting our great sport in our great state, not because of "egos" (which was an unfair jab) but instead for helping youths benefit from this sport the way we all have. Obviously, we all feel that way about wrestling or we wouldn't be doing what we're doing. Let's keep it clean, respectful, fair, and most of all, with the kids in mind.

I will say again, if we are wanting to know our true individual state champions, perhaps we should be putting together a proposal that includes: 1)class regionals, then 2)class states, then 3)all-class grand state, then 4)dual state. This way we have state qualifiers, ind. class champions, then also our true grand state champion, but we also let teams compete against schools their own size in a dual format. Best of all worlds, perhaps. But in reality, that would probably never get through, I don't think the KSHSAA wants to do things "differently" between sports. . .which is likely one of our biggest obstacles with the DS proposal. Maybe worth some thought, though.

Regards,
Kit Harris

Kit, yeah it is worth some thought. As a wrestler you should know that sometimes the toughest battles taste the sweetest. I don't always believe in taking the easy way out. To say that we are complacent with merely having the KSHSAA apease us should not be the case. Just as you made some very valid points.. I feel you need to think not only of the number of wrestlers involved but numbers of the wrestling communities involved & $$$$ that can be generated & interest that can be sparked. Plus it (GS) is a proven success ! You state this wasn't brought forward for several reasons. Please elaborate! I can't believe that anyone that has wrestled is not willing to put up a fight. I know one thing, I'm only 1 person but I'm not afraid to let the KSHSAA know what I think. Maybe we scare them how big a Dog we can grow to !! God forbid we become the wintersport of choice!! And by the way Kit, ...you're doing a good job but don't give up hope that we can't fight em cause we CAN !