103- Gage vs. Hansen
Hansen WBMD
-Hansen hasn't been touched this year has he? I may be wrong but I think he was undefeated
4A 0 5A 4

112- Bahe vs. Graham
Bahe WBF
-Bahe wins pretty easily, Graham got lucky and beat a hurt stud, given it takes talent to do that but Bahe wins enough said, with wins over the 321A State champ, and several placers, not to mention overcoming what he's gone through?
4A 6 5A 4

119- Wall vs. Deshazer
Deshazer WBD
-Deshazer is a stud, no doubt a future 4 timer but Wall is a stud in his own right
4A 6 5A 7

125- Dawson vs. Crumbliss
Cumbliss WBD (OT)
-Crumbliss appears to be the favorite but would be a great match that could go either depending on the day
4A 6 5A 10

130- Ellison vs. Baldridge
Baldridge WBF (easily)
-Who can argue with 3rd at Senior Nationals and just look at him, falls over Weatherbee and Baker...
4A 6 5A 16

135- Elliot vs. Tucker
Elliot WBD
-An undefeated freshman campaign, shows some composure and work ethic in that weight class, tough kid
4A 9 5A 16

140- Garcia vs. Grape
Garcia WBD
-Beat a 4x state champ at regionals to snap a 100 match win streak, only lost 2-0 to him at state, talk about mindset and talent
4A 12 5A 16

145- Grater vs. Cornejo
Grater WBD
-more focused on revenge after the loss to Joe at Senior Nationals
4A 15 5A 16

152- Zahm vs. Anderson
Anderson WBD
-Just believe he's mentally tougher and more capable, not taking anything away from Zahm's TD on Erisman, but gotta take Anderson
4A 15 5A 19

160- Taplin vs. Jonas
Taplin WBF
-Who hasn't he beat? Taplin stuck Wise in the 1st, Jonas only beat Wise 2-1, easy stick here for Taplin, did Jonas go to Senior Nationals?
4A 21 5A 19

171- Wiscombe vs. Malloy
Malloy WBD (OT)
-Taken Malloy all year, gotta stick with him here again
4A 21 5A 22

189- Strawn vs. Pietrzyk
Pietrzyk WBD
-Pietrzyk is a stud, Strawn is good yes, just Pietrzyk is better to me
4A 21 5A 25

215- Fox vs. Sponsel
Fox WBD
-Fox is good, beating Maars (4th Senior Nationals) 11-10 at State, who'd Sponsel have in his bracket?
4A 24 5A 25

275- Miller vs. Payne
Payne WBD
-He's good, that's all there is to it, could also go either way depending on the day
4A 24 5A 28

Individually, 5A is very likely tougher than 4A. no way can you make this assumption, you wrestle this dual every year for 5 years, 4A wins 3 for sure maybe 4.

Individually, 6A is likely tougher than 4A. you have to be kidding me, yes the state champs are good, but several of the state champs got killed in the BS/SM dual. Yes granted they have their fair share of studs, they have too many losing records for the "good" kids to not make the finals

Without question, 4A has more depth of quality wrestlers in each weight classification than 6A and 5A, and perhaps 3-2-1A.finally a little knowledge, we do have more depth overall, and State Champs are so because they are the best, let them wrestle 10 times and you'd have a different outcome each time, 5W 5L a piece, just how good they are.

Alex

As a whole class though, I'd 4A is tougher. Just look at the entire placings.

All good points, ideas, replys, whatever you call it, but you seem to be missing it again.
Now get this!
Valley Center 5A #16 over Scott City and Colby 4A #7 and #8 respectively.
You go to those Valley Center Kids and tell them that 4A is tougher. That will be a hard sell because those kids are saying, dang, I wish we were in 4A and we could have placed in the top ten and they would have every right to think that.
Valley Center, #16. We are not just talking about Carroll, AC and Turner.
Goddard 6A #7 over Abilene 4A #2. And that was without Edgemon, a 3x state champ.
Go to those Goddard kids and tell them that 4A is tougher. That will be a hard sell because those kids are saying, dang, I wish we were in 4A and we would have taken home a trophy, maybe won it all and they would have every right to think that.

All the wrestlers i know that have wrestled in any other class and 4a have all told me 4a was tougher. this would include among others andrew gossett, Alex ryan, and jake dozier. Now obviosly none of these kids were great in any class. But that doesnt change the fact that they are the only ones who have experenced both regional and state tournoments. And they all seem to think that the 16 man regional brackets at regionals in the small schools beats the 8 man brackets in the big schools.

I cant help but agree with them.

And as for the big schools beating the small teams in tournoments. First of id like to see any team beat clay center or abilene in a dual. Secondly it is alot easeir to score points at mid season invitationals than it is at the 4a state tournoment.

Who won the Newton tournament?

oakley check out the match ups.

Not a team from the 4A Class!

Results of Newton Tournament - January 14 & 15, 2005

Team scores

1. Norton 170.5, - 3A
2. Bishop Carroll 166.5, - 5A
3. Clay Center 163, - 4A
4. Ark City 152.5, - 5A
5. Campus 150.5, - 5A

Who won Newton last year and the year before? Who won Basehor this year? These results are not relevant to what we are discussing. The results would only indicate who MIGHT be the "best" team in the state and are no indicators of the "toughest" class.
Of course a 16 man bracket would, usually, be "tougher" than an 8 man bracket. That is a no-brainer. This is not relevant to what we are discussing. This would only indicate which MIGHT be the "toughest" regional and is no indicator of the "toughest" class.
I agree that it is easier to score points at a "mid season invitational" than it is at the 4A state tournament. It is also easier to score points at a "mid season invitational" than it is at the 5A state tournament.
Once again, and hopefully for the last time.
5A #16 Valley Center over 4A #7 and #8 Scott City and Colby.
5A #7 Seaman over 4A #4 Andale.
I am sure that Valley Center and Seaman would agree that it is easier to score points at some "mid season invitational" or dual over the likes of mighty 4A powers like Scott City, Colby and Andale than it is to score points at the 5A state tournament. What you just gave me was an EXCUSE as to why a 5A team beat a 4A team.
I stated that the results did not mean that 5A was the "toughest" class. What they show is that 5A is just as competitive and "tough" as any class. I agree that 4A and 3A was and I say was tougher than 5A and 6A but that is not the case now. Advocates of 4A and 3A supremacy are living in the past. For every result of a 3A or 4A team beating a 5A or 6A team that you could give me, I could give you a result of a 5A or 6A team beating a 3A or 4A team.
I am not sure what the Oakley comment was trying to show? I only know that Oakley did not even make the medal round at Colby whereas Shawnee Heights and Valley Center both won their pools loaded with mighty 3A and 4A teams and finished 2nd and 3rd to Chapparal CO.
Oh, and I almost forgot, Bishop Carroll hammered Clay Center in a dual this year, yes, hammered.

The 4A Regional at Colby where Clearwater, Pratt and Russell all participated consisted of 14 teams. NO full 16 man brackets!

103 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 7 with winning records!

112 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!

119 lbs.
9 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!

125 lbs.
8 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!

130 lbs.
12 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Alex Ryan participated in this bracket and was one of the wrestlers with a winning record.

135 lbs.
9 wrestlers entered, 8 with winning records!

140 lbs.
12 wrestlers entered, 7 with winning records!

145 lbs.
11 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!

152 lbs.
12 wrestlers entered, 9 with winning records!

160 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Chenoweth won this bracket with Fairleigh placing 3rd.

171 lbs.
8 wrestlers entered, 4 with winning records!

189 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!

215 lbs.
11 wrestlers entered, 5 with winning records!

275 lbs.
9 wrestlers entered, 4 with winning records!

To win a full 16 man Regional Bracket a wrestler has to win 4 matches.

To win a full 8 man Regional Bracket a wrestler has to win 3 matches.

As with ALL regionals, there are certain brackets where the level of competition is higher than others.

A 321A team won Newton, not a big school. That was my point. Just because you have a good dual team, doesn't mean you have a good tournament team. A smaller school may not have a full roster, but the guys they do have are studs.

And the 8 man brackets aren't always full either. If I remember correctley, there was a guy that made it to state winning one match the entire season. If you look at the entire state bracket, 4A is tougher than 5A. I'm talking about every individual in the state in each class.

Regardless, Jonas's merits are better than Chenoweth's so he should be picked over him.

He should be picked over me, I choke, he doesn't.

I learn some language at Senior Classic each year from 5a people:

2004: Cut Grass
2005: Meija (me-haw)

What will 2006 bring?

Dang Salyer, that was pretty slick about that Colby regional thing. That kind of knocks that 4A's awesome regional idea clean out of the water. Be sure and save that for next year because you know that topic is sure to come up again as it always does.

That may be true that not all the brackets were full and all had winnin records. But how many losing records made it out of our regonals? How many made it out of your precious 5/6A regionals? My point, althought we may not have full brackets we always have kids with winning records making it out. The same cannot be said for the bigger classes.

Losing Records by Class-
6A- 34 (32 Schools)
5A- 38 (32 Schools)
4A- 6 (64 Schools)
321A- 9 (64 Schools)

We may not have full brackets but we do have full competition come state time, you be the judge.

Dang Alex, that was nicely put. But I don't think the state tournament counts. Only our regional this year can be taken into consideration. Because apparantely we claimed that we had a really tough regional, although I don't remember when.

The 4A Regional at Colby where Clearwater, Pratt and Russell all participated consisted of 14 teams. NO full 16 man brackets!

103 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 7 with winning records!
How many winning records again in a 5/6A regional? Normandin, Tibbles, Wimer, 50% of Medals

112 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Tough class top to bottom, Bahe, Fischer, State Champion, and 33.3% medals

119 lbs.
9 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Fischer,Kough that's 33.3% of the state medals

125 lbs.
8 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Stephens, 16% of medals

130 lbs.
12 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Alex Ryan participated in this bracket and was one of the wrestlers with a winning record.
Stroot, state runner-up, 16% of medals

135 lbs.
9 wrestlers entered, 8 with winning records!
Deeds, Heckel, 33.3% of medals

140 lbs.
12 wrestlers entered, 7 with winning records!
Garcia State Champ, Eck, 33.3% state medals

145 lbs.
11 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Shroeder, Finley, 33.3% state medals

152 lbs.
12 wrestlers entered, 9 with winning records!
0% of state medals, yes kind of weak apparently or was it bad draws? Oh well no excuses, just didn't get it done

160 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Chenoweth won this bracket with Fairleigh placing 3rd.
Chenoweth, Fairleigh, Cook, hm... 50% of state medals, weak too?

171 lbs.
8 wrestlers entered, 4 with winning records!
This one appears the most like a 5/6A regional, sad but true, Spexarth 16% of state medals

189 lbs.
10 wrestlers entered, 6 with winning records!
Segar, Cowan or 33% of State Medals

215 lbs.
11 wrestlers entered, 5 with winning records!
Fox, State Champ, Starr 3rd, 33.3 % of state medals

275 lbs.
9 wrestlers entered, 4 with winning records!
Miller, State Champ, 16% of State Medals


just an example for you....

Salina-South
103 lbs.
1st: Jordan Hibbs, Hays (10), 17-12;
2nd: Wesley Thomas, Great Bend (9), 8-12;
3rd: Michael Huddleston, Topeka-Seaman (11), 9-19;
4th: Rayne McClanahan, Salina-Central (9), 4-19

Only one winning record in an 8 man bracket, how many of these would survive a 321A/4A regional?

Please show me some hard concrete evidence how good 5/6A is, i've shown you some proof how WEAK it is here

My name doesn't count, I choke. Right Salyer.

I hate it when you have to finish runner-up the 4th best guy in the nation at 160lbs.