Chenoweth
What was your career record, just out of curiosity?

137-18. 11 of those losses were freshman year.

I figured up what you lost according to other posts I just didn't know about the freshmen year. Very impressive.

Please guys, I really do not want to get into a mudslinginmatch. I think we are going the wrong direction with this post.
We all know that 4A is dirt tough, that is well documented and established. Surely, you got from my posts, that I was not saying otherwise. What I was showing was that 5A is just as tough as any class and I really believe that to think otherwise is an uninformed, outdated idea. I believe that the results that I gave verify this.
Valley Center (just 16th in 5A) placed behind 4A top ten powers at Rosehill but they placed ahead of 4A top ten powers at Colby. When I defend 5A or even 6A, I am not cutting others down to prove my point, while generally 4A and 3A advocates are cutting 5A and 6A down and there is no merit. "We" are defending, "you" are attacking. Just like the Salyer comments. How would anyone know that someone else had herpes unless they got it from them or they gave it to them? Someone's actual high school or college wrestling background has nothing to do with their wrestling knowledge or ability to analyze wrestling data.
There are always "weak" regionals in every class, that is, some that are weaker than others. In 5A and 6A there are always two regionals that are weaker than the others. This is a product of KSHSAA not making the effort, for what ever reason, to seperate the powers in the class. Usually 8 of the top 10 teams in 5A and 6A and sometimes 9 are put into two regionals while the other two regionals will have 1 or even no top ten teams. They are always the Topeka and KC regionals. This is what produces so many wrestlers with losing records and not the class itself. For every kid with a losing record that made it, there is a kid with 20 to 30 wins that did not. When Goddard was in 5A, almost yearly there were kids with 25-30 wins that did not qualify because they were thrown into the toughest regional with Carroll, Ark City, Valley Center, Kapaun, Winfield, Campus and Liberal. The top four in the regional could finish top four in the state. These said kids that did not qualify in 5A had beaten kids earlier in the year that placed at the 4A state tournament, but there was never a mention of that when the "toughnest vs. weakest" class thing came up.
As far as Norton (not Oakley) goes, yes they MIGHT have been the toughest or best team in the state this year as their win at Newton, barely over Bishop Carroll, would indicate. But you must consider that they did lose to Clay Center earlier and Clay Center lost to Carroll. So A beat B, B beat C and C beat A. They all three won their respective classes. What is logical to gather from this? They are all equally tough as are their classes.
Its all about wrestling. We should direct our cuts at other things and not other wrestlers, or other schools or other classes. I will be the first to bury the hatchet (not in anyone's head).
For the sake of argument, I will declare that a team composed of 4A wrestlers could defeat the Russians and I hope that everyone is happy.

Hey, I understand that it sucks. While I wasn't as good as you, I choked myself senior year, taking fifth while losing to two kids I'd already pinned earlier in the season. I even had to wrestle one of them again in the back bracket and beat him, which made it worse that he knocked me out of the championship side. I had a legitimite shot to win state but I too choked. Man, bad memories...

But all I'm saying is get over what he said, it's not a big deal and it shouldn't offend you all that much. There's no need for all of the little sarcastic comments you keep making.

Analyzing data NO, but knowledge yes, if no one's ever wrestled they would not have near the current knowledge of those actively engaged in the activity. You cannot tell me that an NBA guy would know as much about wrestling as a guy in RPW, and yes Norton did have the best team top to bottom in the State. Weak spots yes but overall very tough, they were beaten by Clay Center without I believe a 160lbs and 145lbs, but you can't blame it on that.

LancerM, I am sorry for the sarcastic comments I have made and will no longer make any more. I apologize to any people that found my comments offensive. And thank you very much Straightshooter.

Now now, i wouldn't go as far as saying that a 4a team could beat a Russian all-star team. Maybe against the Iranians or the Cubans would be a safer bet.

All good replies.
Thank you for the input.
My response would be that we are not talking about an "NBA guy", we are talking about someone that has been around wrestling for a long time and has seen a lot of matches and has kids that wrestle. This person would be very knowledgable in wrestling. I have no problem with Norton being "hailed" as the best this last season. And, I still believe that a team of 4A wrestlers could beat the Russians, but perhaps not the former Soviet Union.

wsewc,
I said I made a mistake. I said Oakley and meant
Norton. Bishop Carroll lost the team title by 1
point. The Norton heavy beat the NW heavy in ot.

That's an interesting statement Mr. Zahm. Salyer, is this true.

From what I've heard, he's never stepped foot on a wrestling mat as a wrestler. How good were his kids? A person that has watched knows not 1/2 of what those that wrestle do, end of story. You can read all you want and it means nothing without being able to relate to it. Just because you've watched and read and etc. and etc. doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about. I don't care how long he's been around it doesn't equate to being knowledgable. Most good statisticians and announcers and knowledgable people have been former wrestlers, coaches, had kids that wrestled, and many were once coaches. They themselves were successful. Without being actively engaged in wrestling right now, you don't fully understand where things are going, you may see we are weak in areas, but who knows that we aren't currently working on these areas right now and the results haven't showed yet? As an example, my dad's been around wrestling since he was younger, he doesn't know too much and he's followed it pretty closely since then. He knows what it's like in the old days. He sees things that need fixed but hasn't been in our HIGH SCHOOL wrestling room for a practice, so he doesn't know what's being taught etc. I'm just getting at that a former wrestler understands more than one who doesn't just from previous experience.

Hmmmm this topic is deep. I think i'll go watch a baseball game and drink some sort of spirits.

Alex,

While I won't argue that most of the time a person that has wrestled should have more knowledge than one that has not, it does not mean they are completely oblivious to the sport. If this were the case, I'd think our best sports commentaters would all be former pro athletes.

I also realize Mr.Salyer has ruffled some feathers, but let's not assume he has no knowledge. He is an advocate for wrestling, even if some don't like his approach. I'm not on here to stick up for him. I seriously doubt he wants or needs that. I just think some of the blanket statements are flawed, and some jabs went below the belt.

Curtis, don't put yourself down. You're a hell of a grappler. I hope you continue being involved in the sport.

As for the big class, small class debate: That horse is dead and decaying. I think it's time to bury it. It's not going anywhere.

Coach Jilka

Thanks Coach Jilka. I'll be doing it in college, somewhere.

Hey Curtis i'm signing with Newman...you comin? There isn't much room left!

Coach Jilka- I respect you very much not only as a person but as a coach. You have vast knowledge of what is currently happening in our wrestling rooms and practices. I made several comments based upon merit of some remarks I have read posted by himself. I do not mind a wrestler/coach criticizing a fellow wrestler, but when a SPECTATOR, one who has never wrestled himself, starts criticizing it becomes another story, as he's never been there or on a mat for that matter. He no different than a guy who goes to his hometown's high school duals every week, after his kids have graduated. If he has such vast knowledge then why couldn't he make his kids state champions? He knows sooooo much anyway. I'm not meaning to complain about himself or his family, but he has such vast knowledge and skill you'd think he could pass it on.

I don't know yet.

No way Gossett, he's joining the Colby CC squad this year

I am?