Anyone remember Biker Mice from Mars?? They were always fiending for rootbeer and hotdogs....freaking good times man.

I do not wish you to think I am picking on you,

Quote:

"I do not wish you to think I am picking on you,"

Richard,

Not at all, I enjoyed the exchange. Your loyalty to Kapun is admirable.

But you have lost sight of the question, that is, "whether Grand State is a concept worthy of breathing life back into". Are we like injured dogs spending our time and energy biting at the wound without letting it heal and moving forward.

Best regards,
Time Stands Still

Great comparison! Seriously, that was very nice.

I have not lost sight of the question, I have lost faith in KSHSAA's ability to determine which activities are best for our youth.

I tire of the argument from KSHSAA and high school administrators about budget restraint, etc., as there are avenues available to seek private and corporate sponsorship. These avenues can not be pursued until KSHSAA grants more points and / or dates for competition.

I believe we should not only have Grand State but also some form of team dual state.

I do not believe this effort should be led by high school coaches, but by the private sector (parents and fans). Certainly, input and guidance must be obtained from the coaches and athletic directors, however, these individuals must carry a low profile when dealing with KSHSAA. I can assure you, when I have visited with KSHSAA regarding certain matters, as a parent and taxpayer, I do not hesitate to voice my displeasure to either Mr. Musselman or Mr. Bowden.

I need to stop as I am beginning to feel the adrenaline rush, and the need to take one of these administrators to either the mat or the woodshed.

For the whole "2 state tournements" thingie and how it seems unnecessary, Debate has 2 state tournaments (2-speaker in which you qualify at an open meet, and 4-speaker in which you qualify at regionals), how come they can have 2 but wrestling cannot?

Mr. Salyer:

For many years I have read your posts on this site and found them to be useful and informative. But I must take exception to your most recent comments.

First of all, as a five-year member of the KWCA and member of the committee that helped draw up the orginial proposal for Dual State, let me tell you that despite what you may believe there is no overwelming underground support among the KWCA for Grand State. It just isn't there. Grand State would exist only for the elite, while Dual State would allow all varsity members of qualifying teams to participate.

Secondly, the coaches do not (as you put it)have to keep some kind of low profile with KSHSAA. On the contrary, KSHSAA seeks out input from coaches and tells us that "...if that's what the coaches and member schools want, that's what we'll do."

Finally, the idea that parents and fans should lead the initative for change in wrestling is absurd. That's like saying that the same group should run high school athletic programs at the local level. KSHSAA does a fine job of running high school athletics and they do it for the best interests of the athletes and the individuals who teach them -- the coaches. To say otherwise is both wrong and misinformed.

Jeff Holmes
Head Coach -- Immaculata (1999-2002)
Head Coach -- Maur Hill (2002-03)
Assistant Coach -- Atchison (2003-04)
Head Coach -- Vinton-Shellsburg, IA (2004--)

"On the contrary, KSHSAA seeks out input from coaches and tells us that "...if that's what the coaches and member schools want, that's what we'll do."

Why then hasn't the KWCA dual state proposal been adopted by the KSHSAA?

"Finally, the idea that parents and fans should lead the initative for change in wrestling is absurd. That's like saying that the same group should run high school athletic programs at the local level."

I find nothing in Mr. Salyer's post that suggests parents/fans should "run" high school athletic programs. Rather, he states these groups should attempt to change the KSHSAA.
It seems to me, successful coaches encourage and embrace the support of parents/fans. After all, the parents are the ones who supply them with talent and the fans are the ones who, in effect, pay the coaches salary. In return, the good parents/fans should be expected to stay out of the running of a successful coaches program.

VS Vike Coach is has a grasp of the reality of both Grand State and Dual State. The one thing that I disagree with him about is Dual State being for everybody.

Dual State would occupy one week of the season, or add one week on to the season. The coaches would not be able to schedule meets in that week with the possibility that they would be one of the chosen few, or who would even host a meet under those circumstances?

Right now every varsity wrestler in the state of Kansas is competing on that magical date. They are in league meets, invitationals, maybe duals; but with a Dual State only those chosen would be able to compete.

Best Regards
Time Stands Still

Time Stands Still:

The Dual State proposal I refered to was the one in which the top two teams from each Regional in 6A and 5A and top four in each Regional from 4A a 3-2-1A would go to a State tournament the week after traditional State. The in-season Duals tourney was not part of the KWCA proposal.

KSHSSA has not yet adopted Dual State mainly because of scheduling problems, as well as a hesitancy from the board to add a second tournament, however the proposal is far from dead — it just needs some tweaking.

And as for the reference about parents and fans, perhaps a better way to put it is that KSHSAA is going to accept the views of coaches and administrators first. If the coaches and administrators aren't interested, KSHSAA won't be either. So parents and fans who feel the need to he need to take one of these administrators to "either the mat or the woodshed..." are not going to be taken very seriously.

And finally, like every coach, I invite and welcome the support of parents and fans, provided it is support and not an attempt to run things --- and don't say that doesn't happen because we all know it does. And members of that group lobbing idle threats at state administrators is not support.

Since this topic has expanded to include the possibility of a Dual State meet, I thought a little background on the proposal might be helpful to some people who might not have been following the topic over the past few years, or who have grown fuzzy over the details.

A few years ago, Kit Harris wrote a concise proposal to KSHSAA, on behalf of the Kansas Wrestling Coaches Association. I have maintained a copy of this original proposal on the website, which can be found by clicking on the "General Info" topic (or you can get there directly by going to http://www.usawks.com/KWCA/dual_state_proposal.htm .

Some of the details might change, but I think that this proposal is still the basis for most of the subsequent requests that KSHSAA add a Dual State tournament to the high school calendar.

Dear Coach Holmes:

The Dual State Proposal was once again proposed to the Executive Board this past June while you were busy moving to Iowa. Once again, the proposal was not approved. At the present time, the proposal is DEAD. Based on my conversation with Mr. Bruce Deterding, past chairman of the Executive Board, scheduling had nothing to do with the reason the proposal was not passed. It would appear the KSHSAA and the Executive Board are not "going to accept the views of coaches and administrators first".

Hence my belief it is time for the fans to express to KSHSAA and their local administrators their support for such event(s). If there is no support, then I will be in the minority and accept the decision.

It is clear your statement, "lobbing idle threats at state administrators is not support." is directed towards me, and inasmuch as you were not a part of any conversation between myself and Mr. Musselman or Mr. Bowden, you speak from complete and total ignorance to the matter. There is a difference between expressing "displeasure" and making threats.

It is unfortunate you have experienced difficulties with parents at your previous schools. These relationships generally are directly related to a coaches win / loss record.

Perhaps up in Iowa things will be much more suitable for you.

I'm sure, Mr. Salyer that things will be much better in Iowa for myself and my family, and thank you for you kind wishes.

And inasmuch as you were not part of any relationships between myself and the parents or fans in the programs I coached at in Kansas, you speak from complete and total ignorance to the matter. There is a difference between expressing knowledge of troubles at other schools and making reference to anything I personally experienced. These relationships generally are directed (by responsible adults anyway) as to the job you do helping kids improve.

And I am truly sorry to hear that KSHSAA turned down the Dual State proposal again. It's good plan and has worked here for 17 years. But at least they OKed 4A's escape from the Kansas Coliseum. That's a fair trade indeed.

VS Vike Coach:

First I am not the one taking administrators to the wood shed. That was Richard. You got your antagonist mixed up.

You and I agree that grand state is dead and rightfully so, but disagree on the value of Dual State.

Dual state has it's own problems. If it is tacked on to the end of the season, then like Grand State it becomes another week of practice for everybody on the varsity, another weighin for everybody on the varsity, and another road trip for everybody on the varsity. Mind you some of the varsity members would not have wrestled since regionals, so weight and conditioning becomes an issue.

If Dual State is scheduled for an earlier week, using, your model of taking the top teams from Regionals, that would push Regionals to a week earlier to fit Dual State between Regionals and individual state.

If some of the other models are used to pick the participating teams there still is that question of where are you going to put Dual State in the season. The answer has been wrestle Dual State on the week before Regionals.

What is given up? All the league meets, invitational tournaments, and duals that are usually wrestled in that week. Who wrestles those meets? Answer: Everybody.


Who wrestles Dual State? Answer: Only those chosen. So most of the varsity wrestlers in the state will be sitting idle.

I doubt that many of the coaches, who have stopped to think about what they will be giving up, are in favor of Dual State.

As far as parents and fans are concerned, VS Vike Coach and I are back on the same side. If they want any influence at all; their best shot is to contact the coach, athletic director, or the principal of their high school and voice their postion. Let those people carry the message. Those individuals approaching the KSHSAA would be spitting into the wind.

Best Regards,
Time Stands Still

Man, this is so like last year when all of us kids would argue and then we'd get yelled at for it...

MancerL--no one questions your right to argue when you're old enough to carry a colostomy bag.

He sets up from three point range...the clock hits one...he puts it up and...

*Swish*

I think it is much more a factor that the "older" guys have developed tact.

Tact, is the ability to tell a man, to go to the outhouse ... and make him think, he is going to the penthouse!

They have developed a little flare for verbage!

Many of us elder folk have developed the ability to speak out our aggressions because a physical confrontation with our antagonists would result in a long hospital stay. no fun. so, we speak more eloquently and take more time to do it, hoping our competition will fall asleep or go away. call it playing verbal possum.

Exactly Mike!