I think both Egg and AC_Wrestler are completely missing the point of going to tournaments throughout the year. The whole purpose of wrestling in tournaments is to prepare for the regional and state tournaments. I agree it would be great if some of the power house teams met up through out the year and it would sure help shut some of the class arguments up. But would it really benefit Ark City to wrestle Hoxie, St. Thomas, Atchison, Spring Hill, whoever? Would that help Ark City, Hutch, Garden City, in seating meetings at regionals? What other 5 & 6a schools would have common opponents or be able to judge the talent of those kids that beat the 5 or 6a kids or vice versa. The same applies for 321 & 4a schools. How many common opponent criteria are met with teams like Ark City, Garden City, Hutch, KC Washington, Turner, etc?? I would venture to bet very few, if any at all. I remember having a very hard time in a regional seating meeting because Ark City spent so much time in Oklahoma. When is everyone going to admit that the best class in state varies from year to year and just because you have the best team in the state does not mean that you have the best class. Hoxie is the best team in the state this year, but is 321a better?? Who knows. Norton finished second at state but finished 6th at Newton behind 4, 5, and 6a schools. Clay Center beat Ark City, but took 4th at State. At the same time Clay Center finished 40pts ahead of Goodland, but lost to Goodland by 11pts at State. Even Hutch lost to Manhattan by almost 60 pts, but beat them at State by 17. I think using one tournament in the year to judge who is better is flawed. Even if we did have grand state, there would be some to say, so and so had an off night, he was sick, his granpa died the night before, he didn't have on his lucky socks, the moons of Saturn weren't aligned in the proper sequence to allow the rotation of the earth's axis to properly vibe with the eb and flow of the tides making it impossible for the headgear to fit properly...

I got it, instead of grand state, the week after the state tournament, take the top 5 team finishes in each class and enter their entire team into a 20 team tournament. I know we would miss some of the state champs, but I'm sure we would catch the majority of them. This would be another 2 day tournament, but it would sure help clear all of this class junk up, and probably even help with the individual grand state champions.

AC_Wrestler

If you don’t think that Hoxie faces any competition in western Kansas, think again. Western Kansas in rich in wrestling tradition and the sport has become a family tradition to many people in that region. Just check out all the family names that have repeated over the decades. Chances are that most wrestlers in the state of Kansas can probably trace the lineage of the sport they learned to western Kansas, somewhere down the line some of their instruction came from the western part of the state. Too many times people look at the size of the schools in western Kansas and automatically think that their smaller enrollment indicates that they are less of a athletic power. Remember it is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.
It has been my experience that western Kansas wrestlers demonstrate more tenacity and overall mental toughness than most kids from urban areas. In my opinion many kids around urban areas tend to have a less rigorous lifestyle. They find jobs working at fast food restaurants or grocery stores and after practice their work day ends. Kids in the rural setting are usually picking up hay or working cattle, some type of physical labor, and many of these kids still have work to do after practice has finished. The setting that they have been raised in demands more work ethic.
We tend to hold too much stock in tournaments like Newton, the Bobcat Classic. I would gather to say that the toughness of the dual schedule of western Kansas schools far exceeds that of the dual schedules of urban schools. But, if you are going to base your argument on tournament schedule, I will guarantee you that Hoxie competes in tournaments every bit at tough as Newton. Didn’t Hoxie win the Beloit tournament and wasn’t Manhattan at the Beloit tournament? Manhattan won the Newton tournament didn’t they?
I didn’t have the pleasure to see the Hoxie Indians this year, but have talked people who did. From what I understand and the comparisons that I have made I don’t think it would matter what classification Hoxie was competing in this year. Hoxie has earned the respect of everyone who truly knows anything about wrestling.

Scott Neil
Head Wrestling Coach
Basehor-Linwood High School
(Host of the Bobcat Classic)

PMF--you missed the point of my post, totally.

Having developed schedules for many years, I know there are numerous factors to consider, not the least of which are: dollars available and time out of school.

Your points are well taken, but the point of my post was to simply "give it back" to AC_Wrestler.

AC_Wrestler -

You should be proud of your school's accomplishments. Coach Jackson jump started a program that had already earned recognition on the state level as early as their first state team title in 1964 and 3 additional titles in the late 60's. And he had an incredible run of success that has continued through the current day. Congrats on the fine wrestling heritage your school holds.

But surely you realize other wrestling programs also have outstanding heritages too.

Take St. Francis, for example. They already had 8 state team titles before Ark City scored their first. And have 16 total.

Oberlin had 5 before AC's first.

Heck, Wichita East had 10 before AC's first.

Kind of taints your and Hovpen's previous comments about how it will be a long time before another team catches Ark City, doesn't it? I mean, wasn't it Ark City who took 50 years to catch up with these teams?

And how could you ignore Beloit's success? They rattled off 6 titles in a row (3 in 4A and 3 in 321A) at a time when there was little doubt which divisions were the premier classifications in the state.

And on three of those occassions, they scored in excess of 180 points (181.5 in 1981, 189.5 in 1983 and 193 - with 6 state champs - in 1984) at a time when the KSHSAA only medaled 4 placers in each weight and had 12 weight classes instead of 14. Which I find equally as impressive Hoxie's 218.5 or AC's 214.

And how about those great individual season performances from Atwood, Abilene, Clay Center, Effingham, Leoti, Norton, Goodland, Manhattan ..... teams from years gone by.

Or how about 1951 when Colby won the state title and placed 10 wrestlers - w/ 9 placing 3rd or better - in 12 weight classes only to be awarded a whopping 37 total team points for the entire tourney.

Then, the team who I root so loudly for, Hoxie who won their 10th title this season - and who has placed 2nd on 9 other occasssions.

Not to mention the powerful teams from Kapaun (who won the only two grand state meets) that had noteworthy success in the 70's and 80's.

Or the countless other teams deserving of recognition here too.

Point is, you should be proud of your team's success - as should every fan should, whether they be cheering for Abilene..... Deerfield .....Wellsville or Ark City.

But, it too would be nice if you would at least show the maturity to recognize that Ark City is far from being the sole mecca of high school wrestling in our great state. Because it is just one of many schools with a noteworthy wrestling tradition.

P.S. I'll hold you to your comment on a separate post about Hoxie not having any All-Americans or 4x state champs on their current team - because I think you are wrong on that prediction too. But, only time will tell on that.

I'd just like to say that both Scott Neil and Les Brown wrote very, very good posts. You guys bring up very good points!

I also think Les Brown did a great job on his post. But I think coach Neil is a little off on his. What he's saying is a slap in the face to anyone that did'nt grow up on a farm. I don't think it's so much a lack of toughness, as it is a lack of intrest in the bigger city's.

nah...i think coach neil hit the nail on the head...excellent job on your post (all of it)

K.C.

I apologize if I slapped anyone in the face with my post. I did write that it was my opinion, not fact. I have had the opportunity to be involved in wrestling in both the rural setting (as a wrestler) and in the metro setting (as a coach). I work with some great kids as a coach, but the atmosphere of the two setting is quite different. I had no intention of degrading any kids who wrestle in the eastern part of the state, but unless you have experienced both settings you probably won’t understand my view.

Just because you might of won a match against someone des not mean you will do it again.
How many times have any of you guys lost a match and came back and won against that person.
I bet almost all of you have. Some times you just have a bad day. So be careful when you talk trash on the other guy.
Any one that takes STATE CHAMP DESERVES IT.

I just want to give my congrats on everyone this year...But being from Hoxie I hold a spot for all nw kansas wrestlers. And who ever thinks that hoxie could not compete with the bigger teams of kansas are completely out of their minds. They have completely dominated every team they have wrestled. I have seen the hoxie kids wrestle all year. I have never seen more kids wrestle with more heart for someone like coach baker. Thats why I think that hoxie has the best program not only to they respect their coach but they also have a lot of respect for each other and for their fans! Les I like your comments...keep them coming. And keep cheering for us!

Hoxie is a great team. They defeated our 6A state runner up Garden City team in a dual. Garden lost three one point matches which could have gone either way. This would have evened out the dual a little bit.
Garden City's tough schedule has them venturing down to the wrestling holy land at the El Reno Duals every year which has several nationally ranked teams and has also competes against Ponderosa High from Colorado who is nothing short of awesome.

Hoxie is a great regional team and I would have really liked to see them wrestle
against some of the nationally rank teams out there. I hope the Hoxie can expand their travel range next year.

Congrads on a Great Season Hoxie