hey wizard03 bring it is not venegas i am mike johnson i am an old fan thats all i just think the kid is a good wrestler thats all

hasbeen hit the nail on the head. Coaching heavy weights is not a priority. I wrestled heavy weight in Jr high and high school. I had a coach that made it clear he though it was a waste of time. That's sad because in reality if you teach a heavy weight some basics he has the chance to be successful. I have been a kids fed coach for approximately 12 years. I see our heavy weights have not been schooled in the basics. When I get a chance I try to help them. It's great because with just a few moves they can quickly improve their performance. I hope we can get more coaches to give these kids the time they deserve so we can have some interesting heavy weight matches.

Heavyweights are the most essential weight in wrestling.It determines who win and loses a dual.They also determine how long you stay at a tournament. We have no heavyweights so after I won at spring hill we left. We didn't even stay to see who won as a team. Heavyweights Rock!

Hey, I'm not doggin on heavyweights at all, I think they're great, but they have no more influence on the outcome of a dual tournament than any other person. It's not like they single handedly determine it, they're just the last ones to go. But I do love watching heavyweights anyways.

Well has been I am sorry for stepping on your toes but right now I work with the heavy guys and I am trying to instruct them on how to be aggressive and win. It just seems like the heavy guys think they have to go for the big throw when they really do not have to. They need to shoot, shoot, shoot, and score, score, score. The matches that I have seen is the first period goes push, push, push, dance, dance, dance. The second period bottom man gets an escape then push, push, push, dance, dance, dance. The third period goes bottom gets a reversal and near fall then the match ends in a fall. Thanks for correcting me on the jeff boyle thing I should have remembered Norton instead of st. Francis. Boyle was exciting to watch because he wrestled and did takedowns. He is a great kid. I agree with you has been in that coaches need to teach thier big guys how to wrestle. That is what I am attempting to do. However when a majority of heavies go upper body you still have to coach the traditonal stuff so they can feel it coming. I would also like to state that the heavies match does not have to decide the dual. According to federation rules you can mix the matches up. You could even wrestle heavies first if you want and leave the dual up to 103. The arguement that the big guy decides the dual is not valid at all. In a dual every match decides the outcome. That is what is great about the sport of wrestling it is an individual sport as well as a team sport. This is especially true if you have a full squad. Now if you 3-5 wrstlers out then really wrestling turns into a more individual sport. I personally enjoy coaching my big guys in the room they have a great work ethic and awesome attitudes. I would not want to be coaching anybody else really. I hope that they continue to have this attitude because when they become old and beat up like me they are going to need those qualities so they can get out of bed every morning they can go to work.

Well has been I am sorry for stepping on your toes but right now I work with the heavy guys and I am trying to instruct them on how to be aggressive and win. It just seems like the heavy guys think they have to go for the big throw when they really do not have to. They need to shoot, shoot, shoot, and score, score, score. The matches that I have seen is the first period goes push, push, push, dance, dance, dance. The second period bottom man gets an escape then push, push, push, dance, dance, dance. The third period goes bottom gets a reversal and near fall then the match ends in a fall. Thanks for correcting me on the jeff boyle thing I should have remembered Norton instead of st. Francis. Boyle was exciting to watch because he wrestled and did takedowns. He is a great kid. I agree with you has been in that coaches need to teach thier big guys how to wrestle. That is what I am attempting to do. However when a majority of heavies go upper body you still have to coach the traditonal stuff so they can feel it coming. I would also like to state that the heavies match does not have to decide the dual. According to federation rules you can mix the matches up. You could even wrestle heavies first if you want and leave the dual up to 103. The arguement that the big guy decides the dual is not valid at all. In a dual every match decides the outcome. That is what is great about the sport of wrestling it is an individual sport as well as a team sport. This is especially true if you have a full squad. Now if you 3-5 wrstlers out then really wrestling turns into a more individual sport. I personally enjoy coaching my big guys in the room they have a great work ethic and awesome attitudes. I would not want to be coaching anybody else really. I hope that they continue to have this attitude because when they become old and beat up like me they are going to need those qualities so they can get out of bed every morning and go to work.

Hasbeen, just to inform you, when Razor dropped down to 215lbs. I beat him twice that year. I was a sophmore and he was a senior. He didn't walk through this weight class. He beat me in state in double overtime. So I guess that you might want to change your thought about him dominating 215lbs.

And for you "Bring It," if Venegas was in my weight class at 215lbs when I was in school, he would't of even placed. And by the way, he didn't win state at 215lbs.,it was heavyweight

When Razor was at 215 he had 3 overtime matches at state that he did win so he didn't walk away with it. But he was very good that weekend.

Also "Bring It," if me and Venegas wrestled, it would be the other way around.

Venegas did win state at Heavuweight and yes he does shot and that helps him alot with the big guys. But you can't even say how he would do at 215 because he's not in that weight.

Coach Luedke, you are not stepping on my toes at all. I am happy that you are working with the heavyweights, but just because you are working with them does not mean you respect them. Because you obviously do not. You are stepping on the toes of the heavyweights that you coach. Chris Westfal, I am glad to hear you beat Razor. That is wonderful, but if you do not beat him at state (where it counts) it does not really matter now does it. A win is a win regardless of overtime! By the way Westfal what was your best placing at state? I was just trying to point out the fact that a heavyweight can win state at a lighter weight just as easily as a lighter weight can win state at heavyweight ( my examples of Razor and Frazier.) All I want is more respect for heavyweights! I know that in a dual everyone is equally important. That is the great thing about wrestling. It just seems to me that a lot of fans, coaches, and other wrestlers do not respect the heavyweights.

Hasbeen, you said that Razor walked through the 215lbs. weight class. My point is that he did not walk through 215lbs. if he walked through it that would mean he had no competition. I beat him twice. He didn't walk through me did he. And as for state, I would like to make a point. Razor is a good staller. Why do you think he went into 3 overtime matches at state. I'm not making any excuses because he beat me fair and square. But, what I am trying to say is that the stalling went his way in that match, taking us into double overtime where he won the flip. In that match, the crowd and my coach were furious because I would keep shooting and shooting, and he wouldn't try any takedowns. What made me mad about that is that I was doing all the moves while he was just going out of bounds. So you might want to get your facts straight about the match before you bag on it. I know he beat me, and there is nothing I can say or do to take that back now, but if your going to bag on me about a match you don't even know the facts about, that pisses me off. Did you see that match? If you did you wouldn't be saying what you did.

Also, Appwrestling, you make a good point. I don't know if Venegas would do good or not in the 215lbs weight class. All I was doing was posting my thoughts. At 215lbs they are used to shooting a lot and being shot on a lot. Venegas isn't. He might have a descent shot, but he is used to shooting on a heavyweight which, in general, does not have the reaction time that a 215lbs'er has. Now, there are those heavyweights that are pretty quick, But not many that I've seen. He might be able to adapt ok but i don't think that he is used to defending his lower body as much as most 215lb'ers are. I think if a good 215lb'er were to shoot a good shot on him he would have a little bit of trouble. Take Joe Neidere (however you spell it) for example. The state finals match with about 15 seconds left Joe was beating Venegas. Then Venegas shot and took him down easily. In a 215lbs match it wouldn't be that easy. He would have to work for it a lot harder. And if the 215lb'er had any speed what so ever, Venegas wouldn't of got the takedown.
Now, there is someone that did adjust good and he became a 2 time state champion. He wasn't necessarily a heavyweight, but he was used to wrestling heavyweight in club wrestling until his sophmore year. Josh Carrol from Olathe North didn't shoot much his freshman year. He wrestled more like a heavyweight. I beat him at state that year because I was the aggressor. I shot. Then I wrestled him my senior year and he was a totally different wrestler. He shot a lot. And he had a good shot. He beat me at state that year in the second round. He started working on his shot his sophmore year and he said that he improved so much. I know this because I talked to him. He adjusted to a lighter, Quicker weight and was very successful. So I'm not saying that Venegas couldn't do that. All I'm saying is that what he is used to right now he might not be as successful at 215lbs. But I could be wrong. That is just my opinion. I'm not a S#%t talker, I'm just expressing my feelings. And I have nothing against Venegas, he's a good wrestler. All I'm doing is expressing my opinion.

BY THE WAY, I HAVE RESPECT FOR HEAVYWEIGHTS. I USED TO BE ONE. I USED TO WRESTLE LIKE A HEAVYWEIGHT, BUT I ADJUSTED BECAUSE I WENT A LIGHTER WEIGHT. AND THAT'S WHY I CAN EXPRESS THESE FEELINGS BECAUSE I USED TO BE ONE AND I KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE IN BOTH WORLDS (HEAVYWEIGHT AND 215LBS).

Sounds to me like Mr. Westfahl is a little too caught up in his high school days. (Just my opinion.) I looked at his bracket, and it was a very tough bracket indeed. However, I believe four of the six placers his senior year came back the NEXT year, as well as a placer from 189 who moved to 215 (Frandin), and a new state champ altogether in Hemmerling. (I may be a year off, I'm not sure.) So, Mr. Westfahl, contrary to what you implied (but never actually stated), your 215 senior year was not the "most impossible bracket ever." (Again, you never actually said that, but that was the flavor of your post.)
I think perhaps you should stop living in the past, and leave Mr. Venegas alone. There's no way to tell about his shot on Niederee (sp?) and if that would have worked at 215, because obviously Venegas would have been quicker too. I think before you get on here and talk all this junk on Venegas, you should realize that you yourself didn't place, and even for a high school graduate, your punctuation, spelling, and grammar is usually off. Sounds like a hasbeen is jealous of a very deserving state champ. (Just my opinion.)

Chris I know that you wrestled HWT before and I wrestled you twice at state when you where a Soph and Senior years. I'm just saying Adam adjusted to that type of wrestling because he had to. I practiced with adam for four years and he learned to wrestle the way he does now. At state last year the finals match would not have been even close if I would have not lost the match before to Hemerling. I know what your saying about this topic but you can't tell how they would wrestle at a different weight. Also I wish the best of luck to Hutchison high this year and Coach Mike Garcia. Does anybody know what Hemerling is doing next year football or wrestling.

i think that westfahl needs to zip it about how good he did and his style. did u win? no did venegas win? yes there u go

If a heavyweight had my record 6-0, he would never get as much recognition as I will. And basicly thats because I condition harder, my matches have more action. Also most heavyweights have the same technique, lock and throw, 103 pounders have many different techniques.

you seem very confident newbill, but heavyweights have techniques and they condition as hard as you, they just may not run as fast becasue they are bigger. this is pretty obvious and it seems like you dont know much about wrestling or fitness