That last bit about the sod homes, that was a little funny, I must admit.

Okay ... it's time to chime in! I support Gutwrench1's premise that the Kansas system does not select the “elite” wrestlers in a given weight class. Given this opinion, I will quickly counter (for fear that someone will suggest I need chapstick) and also agree with the esteemed Coach DeWitt.

If the goal of KHSHAA, is to produce “the elite” wrestler, then I would suggest that we fail in that regard. But if the goal of KSHSAA is to produce good student-athletes then I think that that goal is being met.

I would venture to suggest that it is not the duty of any public school system to produce the elite wrestler. I would also suggest that looking at the number of State titles a wrestler holds … does not correlate with their placement on the elite level. Jamil Kelley, might support Gutwrench1’s ideas. He was never a State title-holder in California but is clearly, an elite wrestler. As far as Kansas, Neil Erisman, has yet to wear a State crown (any one of the four per weight class) and while I can’t put him on the same level as Kelley (yet) he may in fact be our states best wrestler.

I’ve got some other thoughts but I’m running out of time. More later …

Gutwrench - I think I get the point you are making. Simply put - it takes more to be a State Champion in a single classification state like California then it does in a multiple classification state like Kansas. And you feel that by being a multi classification state Ks State Champions don't have as much respect on a national level. I think this view assumes coaches at universities are only looking at the State championship title and not the individual kid. Assume a state champ from California moved to Kansas for his senior year. Is he a worse wrestler the day he wakes up in Kansas? No. Assume a Kansas State Champion moves to California for his senior year. Is he a better wrestler the day he wakes up in California? No. Calfifornia has a much larger population. They should have more kids competiting at a national level. The better question would be if they have more as a percent of their population than Kansas.

One area where CA is way ahead of Kansas is in emphasizing freestyle and greco. Many of the youth programs do not wrestle any folkstyle until the kids are cadet and junior ages to coincide with high school. My son wrestled in SDIKWA out of San Diego and they use a blended style that emphasizes freestyle scoring. It was bizarre coming from the midwest and intially i thought it was crazy, but i sure saw it pay off down the road for a lot of kids. I do think it helps the exposure of their elite wrestlers to college programs and also helps ensure that
they dont have that drop off of kids like we do from folkstyle to freestyle.

Okay, I did some research and I shouldn't have spent the the time.

Here are the states ranking in pop from 34-50 by number of classifications for high school wrestling. Remember KS ranks 34 with about 2.8 million people

Idaho

Okay, a little research for anyone who may find this interesting.

Here are state rankings in pop less than KS by number of classifications for high school wrestling. KS ranks 33 with about 2.8 million people..Iowa has more pop and 3 wrestling classes. An ugly exception is UT about the size of KS with 5 classes.

ID 4
WV 2
NM 3
NV 3
NE 4
NH 2
RI 2
DE 1
VT 1
HI 1
ME 3
MT 3
ND 2
WY 3
AK 2

Coach Twinkee,
I have great respect for all KS state placers and champs. I have even more admiration for wrestlers who work their tails off and never medal in any tournament but never quit trying. I'm questioning the system not the student-athletes. I feel that setting the bar higher would bring more interest to our state event and more exposure to some of our better kids. Coaches and people invested in KS wrestling should continue to bring change to the system and their knowledge of the sport. Like the proposal for a state dual tournament which they have in nearby Iowa and Oklahoma and many other states. I commend those involved with trying to bring that change to KS. This is a thread about classifications so I've suggested fewer would be better for Kansas.

In your (gutwrench1) previous post you mentioned that you've never (as coach twink mentioned) taken anything away from a KS wrestler (placer or not) let me remind you of a past post or two:

1. posted October 04, 2005 04:22 PM: "4 state champs in every weight class is a joke."
2. posted October 05, 2005 12:42
PM: "Relatively speaking Kansas's 4 classifications waters down the relative value of being a Kansas state champion."
3. posted October 05, 2005 02:29 PM: Sorry the BTK caught during the 2005 state tournament about 4 blks from the Wichita Coliseum was the only interesting thing to come out of your 2005 tournament."

You know I could really dive into your remarkably down-grading comments but your hardly worth the time. But I can't simply stand to read your posts with such disrespect to those that have competed over the years. I haven't a clue who you are but my guess is you haven't contributed much value of any worth to the KS wrestling community nor should you be a part of it - but there are numorous kids that competed last yr. at state that I'm sure would like to have a little "one-on-one" time with you in regards to your post commenting on the BTK comparison. Move or stay in CA - we in KS are doing just fine and will continue to get better.

In regards to the discussion - I totally agree with Mr. DeWitt. Coach Twink(ee) - how's that fit Coach?

Let's not forget the following gutstench attempt at drive-by smack from another thread.....
"There are a handful of good guys like Coach Ulmer in Kansas who have given much to the sport they love and passed that on to so many kids."

Only a "handful" of "good guys" that have "given much" to the sport "in Kansas"? Funny, I can think of, know of, or heard of hundreds. Just because someone doesn't coach or teach the gutstench way they are suddenly not genuine or sincere in what they do. I don't know what some Kansas coach or wrestler has done to gutstench in the past to make him/her so bitter towards the state in general, but it must have been embarrarssing.

Ol' Dog-

I have to agree with you completely- and I keep forgetting the bottom line:

HE ISN"T WORTH THE TIME!

Can't wait for season to start (after football season is over of course)!

March 29th 3:57 pm So is Gut going to come out of the closet?

March 30th 9:05 pm I'm still curious where all this vast knowledge of the sport comes from...

Red

Gut,
I personally enjoy your banter and find a lot of validity in the "kernel" of what you are saying. The other stuff, the put downs, slams etc. well it appears to me you borrow and manipulate from such from ---Rush Limbaugh-esq
radio talk show type tactics. You stir things up that is good. Reveal your identity if you could and help us instigate positive changes in Kansas Wrestling

Thanks for all the nice compliments and re-publishing some of my best shots. I get it. You're not looking for anyone to challenge your little fiefdoms. You're comfortable in the safety net and shelter that high school can provide an adult. Middle aged guys, balding, maybe a tad bit overweight and anxious to teach a whole new crop of kids the tight waist, chop an arm, grab a wrist, put the knee in the butt, and ride parallel for 2 periods. Then, your ref buddies will once again call stalling on the bottom guys and the bizarre sanctity of what you've created will be preserved. What's that ad? Real American Heroes..."Today we salute you Mr. Kansas Wrestling Coach. You learned all your moves in a 1950s illustrated classic, Modern Wrestling. Hey, nice tights. You want 6,8 or even 10 classes in the state. Whatever it takes to finally win that elusive team title. So blow that whistle, Mr. Kansas Wrestling Coach and get on with that spin drill."

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the salute.

In regards to riding the hips, it's hard to feel sorry for a kid that let's himself get ridden out for two periods. So if your strategy is to ride and stall and my kid's strategy is to lay there and do nothing about it, then I would agree that I have done a poor job of coaching and or motivating my athlete. In some cases, a kid is just simply overpowered and it falls into the hands of the referee to make a good judgement call. But, part of the nature of wrestling is to prove dominance and control which some coaches teach by emphasizing riding. I think your beef might be with the officials and not with particlar coaches.

I think calling the high school setting a shelter and a safety net is unfair. With so few college opportunities for wrestling in the state of Kansas it would seem reasonable to believe that most coaches in the state do not have college experience, nor can they expect to advance to a college coaching level. Fortunately the KWCA does a great job every fall of bringing in great coaches for our clinic where we can get ideas on how to raise the level of our program and bring in innovative approaches.

I would like to read this 1950's classic. If anyone has a copy could you please forward it to me? I think a great deal can be learned from stdying the classics. I am sure that it is filled with great fundamental drills that will help me instruct some of the kids just trying the sport for their first time in high school. In the meanwhile, I will continue to review technique tapes and bounce ideas off of other coaches so that I can continue to find ways to become a better coach.

There is nothing wrong with wearing tights. Nor having a mullet for that matter. I had both as a freshman in 1988. With the prevelance of skin disease in our sport, tights just may be poised to make a revival. As for mullets, I put that in there because I think they look cool, especially with some Def Leopard playing in the background.

Four classes works just fine. In reality there could be one class or ten classes and my goals for each season would not change: win league, win regionals, win state. I have yet to do either one of those yet, but if I could just get my hands on that book...

Spin drill is a great warm up exercice especially if you move your chest in a square around his back and push his head in the mat every time you go around front.

I am a Kansas Wrestling Coach. Thank you.

I say, I say....it's time to tell gutwrench1 goodnight............and......sweet dreams!

Coach DeWitt (KWCA Academic chairman) you are a class act… as well as the rest of “teachers” that have dedicated their lives to the betterment of today’s youth. First and foremost you are educators, this should be your primary responsibility. A good educator will make a good Coach. Whether in a classroom or a mat room teaching is teaching. You give countless hours to a sport that you love with very little in return other than knowing that you might make a lasting impression on a young individual. You are also building character and teaching lessons in loyalty, dedication and sportsmanship. Wrestling for most will not pay the bills but a good education, along with for mention traits is a step in right direction. Thanks to all of the folks that “teach” and Coach. There is no need to defend yourself. But you have got to admit the “Great American Hero” thing was pretty creative.

Well said Red and Coach DeWitt!

PS: Red I hear Mikey will be helping out at MHS this year. Coach Gonzalez sounds like he is going to have a pretty good crop of assistants to work with! I'm sure Mikey will make a great coach. Tell him not to worry about what the ignorant people (like our friend in the posts above) has to say. He'll make positive impacts in those kids lives!

I have tried but I count not just let it go.
I am not too concerned with gutwrench1's thoughts and subsequent comments. He is certainly entitled to his opinions and they do make for good discussion, but here are some thoughts.
First of all, it is a good thing that Cael Sanderson did not go to high school in Utah the "ugly exception" where they have 5 classes in a sparsely populated state where wrestling would be "watered down" by a "meaningless" state championship that is a "joke" and where wrestler's talent is hidden amongst the "charade" of 5 classifications and would thus receive "no exposure" because "the bar is not set high enough". Furthermore his 4 state titles would mean nothing

Wait a minute, Sanderson did go to Utah. But his 4 state titles would mean nothing even though he won 4 National titles and an Olympic gold. My question is, how did he ever get recruited?

Second, if kids in Kansas or anywhere for that matter want to be really recognized/exposed, they can go to Sr. Nationals, Fargo or the National duals. Take for instance Erisman who was already pointed out. He has not even won a "class" state title let alone a "grand state" state title and he is heavily recruited and tabbed for O'State because he went to the National duals in Enid and kicked some rear and then went and placed at Fargo.

Third, I can guarentee you that people are looking at Kansas because of our success at Sr. Nationals and the National duals where we almost always place in the top ten in folkstyle, freestyle and greco. In fact, the year that Kansas placed third in the National duals in freestyle, who did they beat for third and forth? That's right, your beloved California. Plus we have had great success recently at the DI's.

Forth, I do not give a rat's patootie about wrestlers in Califonia. They already have everything, mountains, beaches, canyons, waterfalls, giant forests, volcanoes, deserts, Disneyland, Hollywood, Seaworld, the Golden Gate Bridge, Pro football teams, Pro baseball teams, Pro basketball teams, etc., etc., etc. Do they really need more than one state championship. Whereas our poor miserable wrestlers in Kansas have nothing. Aren't we at least entitled to more than one wrestling class. I will certainly not feel bad for California wrestlers, they should be very thankful.
And I am sorry, I mispelled can.

In all seriousness though, I am more upset about the comment made by someone else that the big schools in Kansas did not win state titles until the classes were split. This historian needs to check the history. Of the first twenty state championships held in Kansas under one class, 12 titles were won by two Wichita schools, that's dominance. In the fifties, the district's two schools were broke up because they were too big and more emphasis switched to basketball. At the point, the tide turned somewhat. And also, up to that point, Topeka and Kansas City did not even care about wrestling, they were into the more popular Basketball. In the fifties, after Wichita was broke up. Saint Francis, Colby, Oberlin and Norton took the reigns for the time. And furthermore, the last two state titles won in 1964 and 1965 right before "the split" were won by Newton and Ark City (5A schools presently), not a "small school". At that point, KSHSSA in their infinite wisdom probably saw the writting on the wall. Did you ever think that one of the reasons that the small schools might have been so "dominate" in the 50's and early 60's was because most of the best athletes in the bigger schools were playing basketball and not wrestling. Perhaps the small schools put more emphasis into wrestling because they could not beat the "big schools" in football, basketball and baseball. Do you believe that kids in small schools in Western Kansas are inherently tougher, more athletic or better suited for wrestling than kids in larger schools. If you do, you had better think again. If that were the case, the small Western Kansas schools would still be "dominating" today and that is not the case. It will always be a number's game. Yes you will always have small schools like Norton, etc. that will compete with the big schools because of their tradition and the "individual sport" nature of wrestling but overall, as the bigger schools emphasize wrestling more and more, I only see that gap widdening.
Of course, I guess that it is all just my opinion.