Women! Don't forget the women!

Just thoughts:

Gutwrench -

- Don't confuse qualitative assessment with quantitative research. Your number crunching was accurate up to the point that you concluded that because CA or NY wreslters were more numerous, than they HAD to be better. That's truly mixing apples and oranges. Presumptively, more does not necessarily mean better.

- You've stated an adequate position on state classifications that, ultimately, revolves around the issues of what our state athletic board feels is paramount. Those being (and Mr. Salyer or some with more detailed research capabilities to list the goals of the KSHSAA) to provide student athletes wtih OPPORTUNITY to compete at state level.

- I don't believe that the state association should even attempt to try to designate a single champion for the state...it simply returns nothing for the effort expended other than to appease those fans -like yourself- who wish to have 'the answer'. I would like to see a state dual competition...but that's another (albeit old) thread entirely.

- Your base presumption is skewed. State high school athletics are NOT designed for the production of national collegiate competitors...regardless of how many fans wish it to be. High school athletics are EXTRA-CURRICULAR in scope and function and any benefit for collegiate programs is strictly ancillary.

- Anonymity has a price as well. Identiy lends credence to your 1) knowledge/background and 2) credibility. Absence of such tends to mitigate anything, rightly or wrongly, you might eschew.


Tim Shea

I agree with Mr. Shea. If you want to have an opinion that's great. If you want it be taken seriously please provide some credability to what you're saying. You could be a kid in high school who won just 1 match or cael sanderson who knows. Please provide us your identity you've been saying will be let out shortly. Just tell us so maybe we can take you seriously.

Alex

HERE IS A FEW QUESTIONS FOR ALL OF THE NEGATIVE POSTERS.

WHAT CREDENTIALS DO YOU HAVE TO ACCURATELY STATE THAT 1 WRESTLER IS BETTER THEN THE OTHER, JUST BECAUSE THERE IS 1 OR 4 STATE CHAMPIONS PER WEIGHT? DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEGE TO SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENTS? IF YOU ARE FROM OUT OF STATE, WHAT STATE ARE YOU FROM AND WHAT IS THEIR SYSTEM?

TALK IS CHEAP.IN THE END EACH WRESTLER HAS TO PROVE IT ON THE MAT.

MY HAT GOES OFF TOO ALL WRESTLERS WINNERS AND LOOSERS. THEY ALL GAVE IT THEIR BEST TRY.

ONE MORE THING, THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT CAN BE SAID OF EACH SPORT, NOT JUST WRESTLING.

THANK YOU

KANSAS STATE HIGH SCHOOL ACTIVITIES ASSOCIATION

MISSION STATEMENT
Goals that Influence Student Learning Outcomes
The Kansas State High School Activities Association advocates principles and sponsors services which assure that the state’s middle level and high school students gain a balanced preparation for life, work, and post-secondary education.

Principles on Which Intended Outcomes are Based
Principles advocated by the association are promotion of scholastic achievement as a fundamental basis for a well-balanced activity program, and development of effective citizenship through the practice of good sportsmanship.

Services to Accomplish the Mission
Services provided by the association are:
1. sponsorship of educational workshops, seminars, conferences and publications designed to inform and positively influence students, parents, educators and community members in accordance with organizational principles;
2. administration of a program of interscholastic activities, festivals, clinics and contests among member schools;
3. protection of member schools from exploitation by special interest groups; and
4. communication with policy-making bodies to influence decisions consistent with association principles and operational standards.

Gutwrench: "Knuckle heads??" "Middle aged, balding, maybe a tad bit overweight??" And we should be respecting your opinion?
"Pretty soon I am going to reveal my identity and make all of you feel like idiots??" There is no chance of me feeling like an idiot because of who you are. In life, it is what/how you are, not who you are.
Actually, I know who you are, I just flushed you down the toilet. For a Hall of Famer, you show little class or dignity.

Bracket man, were you in my bracket at the NCAAs? I don't remember seeing you on the awards stand. Flush. Classifications that are based on the size of a school presumes that the larger schools have an advantage. That logic, while it may have once served KSHSAA, is flawed today. There is virtually no corelation between wrestling quality and school population. In Kansas the largest high schools are Wichita East, Shawnee Mission West, Derby, Shawnee Mission East and Olathe East. Does anyone think these programs have an unfair advantage because of their student populations? Do kids going to 5A and 6A schools deserve an easier time qualifying, placing or winning state than a kid from say Abilene, Columbus,etc. Is there anything more equitable about giving kids in the Olathe and Shawnee school districts an easier road to State because of the size of the school? They already come from the state's highest family income brackets and have more cash available for camps and off-season tournaments. In several of these 6A regions there are less than 8 kids in the brackets. So a coach throws a kid with no varisty experience into the region because they might qualify with one or no wins. That's a weak system and, might I remind you, what you're defending. The fact is that wrestling has no greater following at larger schools. Many of the bigger schools have the smallest squads and least participation. Now I think it's kind of a disservice to kids to give them a state qualification with one or no wins. That's an example of how the KSHSAA system waters down wrestling in Kansas. With respect to the high-minded academician on this board, please explain how the current classification system meets KSHSAA's high-minded mission statement? How does lowering the bar serve to prepare kids for a competitive society? Does the ACT give consideration to the population of a school before handing out a test score? I've said before great individuals find their way to the top no matter how little a system helped or hindered them. So the fact that Sanderson or Bunch/Johnston/Roberson made it to the top doesn't mean that high school classifications shouldn't be re-evaluated. KSHSAA can claim no credit for what the elite wrestlers have achieved because it fails to wrestle the best kids against one another.

I anyone is foolish enough to think that Cael Sanderson was discovered by colleges while winning one of the 5 state championships in Utah, then I have some 9th Ward Lousiana real estate to sell you. His dad and high school coach at Wasatch high school told me a few years ago that it was the fact that Cael wrestled more than 1000 matches outside of high school during his youth that gave him an edge. That's a heck of a commitment by athlete and family. Don't confuse things.

GUTWRENCH1, some of what you say is true but much of what you say is true in Kansas but not in other states. In Kansas, basketball is king and not wrestling. Wrestling in Kansas, other than Wichita, was born and grew up in the small western towns. The bigger schools, particularly Kansas City and Topeka and now even more Wichita than in the past did not and do not care about wrestling. In some cases, the kids that are wrestling (as bad as this may sound) are wrestling because they are not athletically suited to make the basketball team. That is not the case in the smaller schools. Many are wrestling because of the tradition of their family or the program. Those smaller schools have always been good and their tradition carries forth today. That is why small, particularly Western, schools in Kansas like Norton, St. Francis, etc. are able to compete with the "big boys". In some cases, wrestling is just now taking hold in the bigger schools as they become more serious. As a result, the bigger schools are closing the gap and in some cases have closed the gap. As these larger schools continue to emphasize wrestling, if they do, the trend will continue and they will pass the smaller schools by. Just look at schools like Manhattan, Aquinas, Carroll and Turner. That is what has happened in some other states like Oklahoma where Perry used to be the supreme king but cannot compete any longer with the bigger schools. And you are wrong if you believe there is no correlation between size of school and team quality. Maybe not in Kansas for the reasons that I mentioned in this post and the previous posts. But in most other states, where wrestling is king and not basketball or in states where the bigger schools have competed as long in wrestling as the smaller schools there is a correlation. Just look at Oklahoma. Perry, which has won more state titles in wrestling than any other school in the country, won 2A last year. Cushing which also has its share of titles won 3A. Both would be destroyed, and I mean destroyed, by El Reno the 4A champ and Ponca City the 5A champ (there is no 6A) and it has been that way for a long time. I know this because I lived it. I coached in Oklahoma for ten years.
Also, your commment about Sanderson is ridiculous because that is what I was just saying in my post to prove your comment wrong and now you bring him up to back your comments. You said that number of classifications affects recruitment and you brought up Utah as an ugly exception because it had MORE classes than Kansas. I was showing that Sanderson still got recruited even though he went to Utah. I also brought up Erisman to show that number of classes is not what gets someone recruited but more, what have they done outside of their own backyard. Erisman, who has won no state titles even in 4A let alone a "grand state" state title, is heavily recruited, not because of his state or class but because he has competed across the country against other states. Yes, duh, that is the same reason that Sanderson was recruited not because the state or class or number of state titles.
You crack me up, and I am dying to know who this "hall of famer" is that knows everything, especially how crappy Kansas coaches are because they are in Kansas and how crappy Kansas wrestlers are because Kansas has too many classes.

And again, gutwrench1, you may even be one of my friends, or at least a colleague. If you are, I hope that you are still my friend because my grandfather always told me, "win an argument, lose a friend". And, I do not want that.