Southern Plains: Bob Phillips asked Jeff Sheets to bring up that all participants (Southern Plains Kids) in the Southern Plains Tournament be required to attend the camp held prior to Southern Plains. Charlie Knox and Barry Disney made the motion and seconded the motion. Motion passed unanimously.

Many of you may not care about this issue but I still feel it is worthy of discussion prior to this Sunday's meeting. I have been heavily involved in summer wrestling for the past four years and I have seen a steady decline since the Southern Plains tournament moved to New Mexico. Last year we had a little more than 30 kids participating. Summer wrestling produces the future Kansas stars who will wrestle in college. We need the number of wrestlers to grow not shrink. Last year our Schoolboy dual team was forced to forfeit five weights because we could not fill a team. There are many, many contributing reasons that we have seen a decline and no one is going to fix all of them. I do, however, feel like the mandate above has to be overturned by a vote this Sunday. MAKING kids attend a camp does not increase participation. Kids (and we are talking about 8 to 14 year olds specifically) should be allowed to make choices and explore opportunities. Until someone says "Hey, Kansas has way too many wrestlers at Southern Plains!" then the tournment should have NO REQUIREMENTS attached to it. I say that, however, I would support requiring participation at the Freestyle/Greco Roman state tournment as the kids numbers barely exceeded 100 wrestlers last summer. Last year, Schoolboy dual participants were forced to be away from home for nearly two weeks by this arrangment. Kids need a break and their bodies need time to recover. Maybe a prep camp isn't what each kid needs, let them choose. The camp is good and I have sent my kid there every year but it should not be mandated.

You will hear all sorts of lame discussion regarding dads coaching, kids not prepared, Kansas Coaches not knowing kids, etc. Disregard all of that as someone(s) trying to exert too much control over a sport that thrives on individualism. Let our kids play baseball, soccer, or whatever during the week before or attend the camp if wrestling is all that they want to do but let it be their CHOICE. VOTE SUNDAY TO OVERTURN THIS MANDATE!!!

I am anxious to hear your feedback.

Will makes some good points. The kids that made the Schoolboy Duals were stretched too far "having" to be at the camp just to wrestle at Southern Plains. The strongest point was the participation levels. Is the requirement to attend camp hurting our numbers? Is that requirement keeping our Kansas kids from wrestling? Until we get to that point of "too many" kids at Southern Plains, we have to stop penalizing the kids who can't make it or can't afford the camp.

Eric Johnson

I agree with Will. Another point that was made at the District 1 meeting discussing this subject was that young kids would be letting other sports teams down by having to attend a camp in order to participate in an event. Many commented that they would like for their kids to attend the tournament and are willing to do so. The challenge is that if they have to attend a camp in order to participate they can't because they will miss too much baseball, soccer, etc. The potential negative impact this could have is that the wrestler who chooses to participate in the camp and the tournament could jeopardize the baseball and other teams they are playing on because they are needed to fill the team roster. This is a larger challenge in our smaller communities.

For me the above scenario negatively impacts on our sport in a few different ways...

1. We are forcing kids to focus on one sport at too young of an age. They should be encouraged to play multiple sports.

2. If they choose the camp and tournament over their team sport and more importantly at the expense of their team....that is the wrong lesson to be teaching.

In my opinion, the solution seems to be fairly straight forward if our goal is to maximize participation (especially since it is back in KS)...

1. Defeat the Camp requirement. It sends a better message, allows kids to play more than one sport, alleviates having to make some hard choices at fairly young ages, etc.

Will is right on point. We did not go to S Plains last year for those very reasons he mentioned, and I can name 10 or 12 others as well. The rationale mandating attendance may be well-meaning, but I feel it is impractical and detrimental.

Ask yourself these questions. How many kids will wrestle on the International Level? How many have the chance to get $$$ for college by wrestling at college? I think that someone figured this out long ago. Maybe this is why the folkstyle season is longer and freestyle is shorter. LONGER=COLLEGE SHORTER=INTERNATIONAL. This is "THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY" Let the kids be kids and compete in other sports and have fun doing whatever they do so chose.

Are we loosing participation in NM because of the camp being required? Yes we are. Landon wanted to go to NM to compete and hang with his friends, but didn't want to miss soccer, by being REQUIRED to go to the camp he choose soccer. HE CHOOSE, not me not anyone else HE DID.

I know the saying "SUMMER WRESTLING MAKES WINTER CHAMPIONS"
and this is very true. But, should the saying be "ANYTIME WRESTLING MAKES CHAMPIONS ON AND OFF THE MAT"

Not all kids are the same, each is different as far as learning curves and the age when they really start catching on.

LET THE KIDS CHOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a few that feel this is what the kids have to do or they won't progress. If a kids wants it they will progress with or without the camp. Look at he big picture and the light should come on.

Just my opinion.

Jason Wood

I agree with all of you,we wanted to go even have family in Albuquerque but with the camp there was no way you figure one would need to take Friday and Monday off just for the drive and another reason might be Hays there's no Freestyle or Greco tournaments in western Kansas why is it there anyway if Southern Plains was in KC,Topeka,or Wichita we would have hundreds coming to this tournament.

What is the logic and or reason for the requirement to attend a KS camp to participate in Southern Plains?

Will all classes (kids, schoolboy, cadets, Jrs) be required to attend the camp?

Will we form a Team Kansas? Singlets? Coaches?

In years past, the Leavenworth County area has sent about 12 wrestlers to Southern Plains (Schoolboy, Cadets, Jrs). I would anticipate that our numbers would decrease to 3 or 4 because of time conflicts, cost, and other conflicts mentioned in the above post if wrestlers were required to attend camp.

Wrestlers may have to head up to the Northern Plains or the Western Regionals to qualify for nationals if they did not qualify at the freestyle state tourney.

I strongly recommend that this camp is not a mandatory qualifying event to participate in Southern Plains.

This discussion should also be over on the high school and freestyle form...a very important topic for older kids and our summer wrestlers as well.

Make it optional.

Mike Flynn
Leavenworth County Wrestling Team

I have a question, do all states require a camp to attend Southern Plains Regional now? I ask this because when I was coaching in Montana back in the 1996-1999 timeframe we sent about 3-4 wrestlers to Southern Plains. We did this so our kids could see new competition and we were able to turn it into a vacation for the kids. No camp was required at that time.

If we want Kansas kids to participate, why make the camp mandatory? Every thread on this post asks what I think are legitimate questions and gives firsthand examples of our kids that are choosing not to participate. It is not because of the travel or the competition but because of the time required for a mandatory camp.

I am interested to see the responses to Mike Flynn's first question as to the reasoning for this camp requirement? I am trying to look at all sides but am having a hard time seeing the logic in having a camp for Southern Plains.

Shawn Budke

Regardless, of how you feel about this issue, I would rather we not take into consideration what is best for baseball when making decisions. Each parent needs to make a decision as to what is best for their child and let the wrestling community do the same for the sport.

Sportsfan02,

I understand what you are saying and would agree with you about not considering is best for baseball, soccer, etc. except for the fact that in smaller communities individuals participating or not participating play a bigger role because it could cause the team to not have enough people to play.

At that point you cannot look at the problem from a pure sporting perspective. The larger, and more important issue in my opinion, is the lesson we are teaching the kids. If a choice is made to participate in the wrestling and go to the camp, thus negatively impacting another team sport then there are several negative ramifications...

1. Teaches kids the wrong lessons, while making it ok to let other teammates down.

2. Possibly leave a negative impression on the community.

Neither of these are good for the sport of wrestling.

The other challenge you have presented is that you are presenting the parents as an individual entity, the wrestling community and entity, and baseball as an entity. The problem is that most of us are the wrestling community, the baseball community, the soccer community, etc. It is the parents that make these communities and most of us are part of a variety of different sporting communities.

Bottomline: Parents shouldn't be put in the position to have to make a choice. That point of contention pretty much goes away if there is not a requirement to attend a camp prior to participating in the tournament.

I still have not seen an argument supporting why we need to have the camp. I am more that willing to listen to that side and even change my mind if it makes more sense and is better for the wrestling community.

The reasons I was given:

1. Problems with some dads coaching their kids. (Don't we have this problem from the start of the season to the end? I contend that some of the finest wrestlers come from dads who tend to be a little on or over the edge.)

2. Kansas coaches not knowing the kids who are participating and needing coached in a match. (The reason we have coaches in the corner is more for safety than any other purpose. 90% of the time a coach is not going to make a difference in the outcome whether he knows the wrestler or doesn't.)

3. The camp encourages team building. (How many of you have watched Vision Quest? Lowden Swain hit it on the head "Guess what coach, I have got news for you. Wrestling is an individual sport!" I like what the camp does for the kids and I still have friends that I made at the Southern Plains Camp in 1977 (which by the way, was OPTIONAL) but I think we need more wrestlers so lets give kids the choice. They should be able to play baseball,soccer,tennis,cricket,rugby,or whatever during the week, work out and hit the tournament on the weekend.)

How many of you would embrace making the FS/GR State Tournament participation mandatory for Southern Plains participation?

Did this issue change at the state body meeting?

It has been tabled for the next Executive Board Meeting. I think we need to start a petition of coaches/club directors who want to eliminate the camp mandate. The issue was discussed and Bob Gonzales played up the Team Kansas concept. I don't think the majority feels the team concept is important for the kids. For Cadets and Juniors certainly, maybe Schoolboy, but not for Novice and below. I am calling USA Wrestling Today to get their feedback.

Why is everything tabled for the next meeting for you have a quorum of USAWKS Clubs represented at this meeting it should be voted on at this time, seems like this is wasted time also if my opinion was asked for and I know it wasn't. I too would be opposed to making it mandatory for a wrestler to attend any camp just to compete at Southern Plains. So if we need to get a petition together you may count my vote as opposed to mandatory camp let me know what is needed.

I believe for a lot of people the main issues are freedom of choice and money. Wrestling is an expensive sport. As Mr. Furches has said in a prior post, there are times when to afford wrestling, family vacations only occur in conjunction with a wrestling tournament. I personally cannot afford to send my son to 3 or 4 camps a summer. I picked the camps my son went to this summer with my budget in mind. We went to 2 day camps and it cost us less than $200 in registration fees and about $100 more for gas and food. Yes, I am sure my son would rather go to Hays for an overnight camp, its a lot more fun. But, we have a good camp like that in this part of the state in Baldwin. This may not be a hugh issue with Southern Plains being in New Mexico, but I heard it may move to Kansas. Then it becomes a hugh issue. I would probably have to chose a camp closer to home and just not go to Southern Plains if the requirement remains the same. IS THIS WHAT THEY WANT. TO STOP KIDS FROM PARTICIPATING in summer wrestling?? Its already tough for the younger kids to participate in freestyle and greco. It competes against soccer (which is great preparation for wrestling - gets the kids in great shape and they love it) and there are few tounaments where the younger kids are treated well. Many times they are grouped into a 14 and under group. Kind of tough for a 10 or 11 year old. Making the camp a requirement just makes participation lower. Thats what is happening. I understand the camp in question is good, if so, it will stand on its own. It shouldn't need this requirement. We should have the right to choose what is appropriate for our own kids and if we cannot afford the camp still be able to go to a tournment. My last family vacation was in Hutchison at a wrestling tounament, but it was my choice, no one elses. I posted this because I believe all of our opinions are important. Agree or disagree post your views, this issue should not be allowed to go away until it has been throughly debated.

I am enclosing part of an email I sent to Bob Gonzales yesterday. It offers some potential options on the camp idea for Southern Plains. Personally, I do not see a need for a camp but if enough people feel that we need one then maybe there is a way to do it so it's viable for more kids.

Please let me know what you think.

Bob,

It was good to see you this weekend. I appreciated hearing your thoughts and reasoning for the Southern Plains Camp. Personally, I am not convinced that a camp is required for Southern Plains.

That said, I am also not one to be a nay sayer and a stumbling block. I think there may be some other ideas out there that would allow us (Kansas Kids Wrestling) to achieve the objectives I heard you lay out. The following are what I consider the objectives you expressed....

1. Maximize participation in Southern Plains.

2. Teach the kids some standardized technique (thus the need for a camp).

3. Create a team concept amongst the kids in Kansas.

The following are some ideas I have on how to possibly achieve these objectives (if these objectives are not correct then I am out to lunch on my ideas).

Course of Action #1: Do not have a mandatory camp for Southern Plains.
Rationale: Southern Plains is a qualifying tournament for national level tournaments. Thus, focus on the standard technique, coaches, and team concept for the National Teams, ie, the duals, Fargo, etc. We have to look at the timelines and the age groups. For example, it is asking quite a bit of our Schoolboys to go wrestle in the duals and then drive thru the night to make it to a camp. We also have to look at how much do the kids really gain by having a camp as far as technique is concerned. These kids have been coached by their club coaches all year during the freestyle and greco season. Going to a camp for a week is not going to drastically help you achieve the objective of teaching standardized technique (I have a different idea for that and will explain it later).

If we have the camp, here's what we are telling the wrestler and the parent....We expect them to participate in a camp for Southern Plains ($145 if I remember your numbers correctly). If they qualify, then we expect them to participate in another camp for Fargo and possibly additional camps for the Schoolboy, Cadet, Junior Nationals and duals. That gets to be quite a bit.

Not sure we gain a whole lot by requiring kids 10 and under to attend a camp without their parents or coaches. I am willing to bet that it will greatly reduce the participation by kids in this age group. If this requirement is maintained then I strongly enourage that club coaches be allowed to participate. This would help teach the coaches the technique that our National level coaches are teaching.

Advantages: Doesn't add an extra camp requirement for those participating.

Disadvantages: Doesn't help us achieve objectives 2 & 3 listed above.

Course of Action #2: Do regional or district camps.

Rationale: This would ease the travel requirement and probably make it an easier opportunity for the kids. This would require a larger number of coaches to teach at the different camps. Another challenge with this COA is that we would have to look at making them commuter camps because it probably wouldn't be cost effective to do overnight camps (we would have to research this).

Advantages: Allows the accomplishment of objective #2 and starts on objective #3. I think it would help in getting more participation but we won't know that without doing a survey or actually trying it. Another advantage is that it would allow more club coaches to attend and thus start learning the technique that the state coaches want the kids to know.

Disadvantages: May not be cost effective.

Course of Action #3: Keep as is and make camp mandatory at one location.

Personally, I do not see the rationale in this and I think it greatly limits participation.


Just some thoughts I had. I look forward to hearing additional ideas or feedback.

Shawn

Last week I talked with Travis Shives who is a National Events Coordinator with USA Wrestling. He stated that USA Wrestling does not wish to have any qualifying requirements placed on kids who would like to participated in the Southern Plains regional event. He went on to say that the dramatic decline in summer participation over the past 10 years is alarming. USA Wrestling would like to see as many kids as possible from Kansas competing in this event.

The team concept as pitched by Coach Gonzales is absolutely on track for the dual events as they are Team Events. Those teams represent Kansas. Southern Plains is an individual event. Yes, our kids are reepresenting our state but NO team scores are kept and very often Kansas kids will be wrestling each other to see who goes home with a medal and who doesn't. Lets keep this post alive with responses from those who would attend Southern Plains to wrestle if the camp requirement is dropped. In my opinion, if one more kid will participate if he doesn't have to go to camp then the requirement/restriction should be dropped.

My son won't be going this year if this is a requirement. After schoolboy dual camp and three days of wrestling going to Hays for southern plains camp is too much. This is crazy when we are trying to boost numbers in summer wrestling to place another road block in the way.

Tom Baughman

The next Executive Board meeting is in three weeks. We need to see more support to abolish the Southern Plains camp requirement. Please read this entire post and feel free to comment.

Summer wrestling makes winter champions! Please read this string and chime in with your feedback. The Executive Board meeting is January 28th!!