We never knew kids club existed until the end of my son's freshman regional tournament when the kids coach asked him if he wanted to join them. My husband & I ran our local rec board for 12 years - all those years we spent doing basketball and we had NO clue about kids!

My nephew showed an interest last year and decided to wrestle this year. It took less than one month to make him decide to go to basketball. Why? His practices were 3 times a week for 2 hours. He is in 1st grade and just wanted to have fun (which is what all sports should be about). I know there are die-hards out there who believe that all wrestlers need total dedication, but as a teacher I know that it is hard to maintain the interest of the average 7 year old for more than an hour.

Nothing against District one or the Ottawa tournament folk yesterday but walking in to the big Ottawa gym yesterday during the time when most of the consolation semis were taking place for the under 12 groups was like walking in a war zone. Coaches were screaming, parents were screaming, kids were crying. I had forgotten what it was like--my son was an 8 and under qualifier and then i spent the next 5 years out of state, until he qualified and placed again last season. Kansas wrestling is of the best quality i have seen in my travels as a coach and official but it is the only place where that behavior is tolerated and sometimes i think expected. Imagine a gym where no parents were mat side unless they were coaches, fans seated and cheering on their wrestlers, warm up areas for athletes only, food tents and vendors outside in a childrens play area. I have seen it and experienced it as a parent, coach and official. Wrestling is an emotional sport for all, the spectators and the participants, if anyone has ever gone to an NCAA championship, you were with the most loyal and knowledgable group of fans in American sports.

Man, since my post to typhoid_mary (who I can see has not struck again since I took her off my Christmas list), I can see we have had some great input from a number of new people on the topic. Interesting ideas and suggestions. I know an overzealous parent can drive a kid away from this and other sports. I have seen it happened it kids wrestling and other sports too.

I will say one thing though in the parents defense about the Ottawa situation yesterday. I know what you are saying is true Illegalhold but it was very difficult in that mornining session in that auxillary gym for the parents to see matches unless they went close to the mats, especially for those who kids were wrestling on the mats farthest from the stands. It was even difficult to see matches on the mats closest to the stands. There were just too many kids wrestling in that smaller gym with not nearing enough seating for the spectators. People (other fans, coaches and wrestlers) were constantly walking and sometimes just standing in front of the stands making it almost impossible to consistently view the action from the stands. You almost had to go by the mats to see your child's matches, especially on those mats farthest away from the stands.

I too have notice the drop of wrestlers in the state of Kansas. I have been involved with the kids for 13 years and the numbers are dropping for sure. I like the fact that people are worried about this. This proves the love people have for this sport. Our club see a lot of new wrestlers from different states each year and I have a great turn over of wrestlers each year because of the military. Parents e-mail me each year and tell me that they wish they were back in Kansas. I have kids who come to the club from other states and and tell how good they are until the first tournament and then come up to me and say whooo its tough here.
Now to get to my point and not to get slammed here but the cost of wrestling is one thing I hear parents talk about. $30 for USA card then the cost of joining a club and then $12 each tournament each week. Its not bad if you have 1 or 2 wrestlers but I have 3 and 4 out of family. Myself I have done it for 13 years and if this is what my 2 sons want to do then I will do what it takes to keep them in it. I know that clubs have to charge this amount to keep things running. I don't even mind paying at the door. Even as a coach I will pay at the door just to help a club out. Still we need to find a way to keep cost down so families don't go broke trying to keep their wrestlers wrestling. Again this is just a thought and what I hear. Some people might agree some might not I just thought I would throw it out there.

I am just throwing out a thought here - but since the cost of shoes and singlets are so high, what if there were a trading post somewhere on this forum. Clubs or parents could post their outgrown stuff or what they need. That could help out the financial end abit maybe....

Since Mr. Cokely has addressed many if not all of the perceived problems regarding the drop in wrestling numbers I will use his list to discuss areas where we agree/disagree.

Originally posted by Cokeley:
1)"Better officiating! Rules and approach needs to be adjusted based on age of wrestlers. Better attitudes and focus on promotion of wrestling instead of taking the authority role too far."

Sorry I don't agree with this one. We previously had rules that were different between kids and high school. The problem is finding referees that want to work kids events when they have to know two seperate rule books. To have a rule book for different age groups would make it impossible to find officials. The problem with officials or lack there of is still coaches and parents. Until we adopt a zero tollerance policy towards abuse of officials the numbers and quality of officials will continue to drop. If a parent/coach gets in the face of an official for any reason, that should be an official ejection with the manditory 8 day ban from participating. Same with wrestlers and misconduct. I have no problem with an official being an "authority figure" because the way I see it, that is what they are there for. As I may have posted before, my motto is, the official is ALWAYS right even when they're wrong.


2)"More control by the state over tournaments. It is hard to make any money for your club by having a tournament when there are multiple tournments in the same area."

It is impossible for the state to regulate each clubs tournament dates as each of us has a very limited number of dates in which we can hold a tournament when high school events are not taking place at our schools. In my club's situation, on a good year we have two weekends in which to hold a invitational. Some years there are no dates when a high school event is not taking place.


3)"More novice, and better policing of novice competition. Perhaps a seperate Novice State tournament for 1st year wrestlers only. Texas has a novice state tournament."

The novice tournaments are becoming more common every year so this should take care of itself. There was a novice state this year in Derby. In regards to policing of novice competition I don't want the state telling us what we can do for an invitational though. Once you start that you better be prepared for them to tell you to do things that you don't want to do. Let each club hosting an invitational set their own novice qualifications and then if they don't adhere to those qualifications call them on it.

4)"Six and under state. This is where the growth will have to start. Have 16 and under state a different weekend."

I agree totally! If we want to capture these kids hearts for life we need to show them the big dance earlier. One of the reasons we are losing these kids after the 6U age is for this exact reason. With the Brute Nationals this year for the 16U ages I believe this is going to be a wave of the future. Thus, I think the 16U is going to take care of itself and make a state tournament for that age irrelevant.

5)"Lower costs. This would particulary apply to those venues who do not permit the carry in of food and drink. Centralize the location of state and get rid of the two night minimum hotel stays."

I agree but in a different area. Arenas are not going to allow the carrying in of food/drink. Since they are basically giving away these facilities to attract the visitors, the concessions are the one area that they have left to possibly cover expenses. As to centralizing the location, it is all done on bids and if you have a better one make sure the local governing authority bids.
We must however control those costs that we can.
My main pet peeve is the manditory headgear. Our club is very honest with prospective new parents when we tell them about the costs involved with our sport. Any excess costs that we can eliminate should be done and please no more of the "feel good" rules like manditory headgear for young kids. If you want to require them for 14U and 16U fine but please spare me the excuses for having them for all ages.

6)"Get rid of Jr. High wrestling or have the KSHSAA adopt more competition friendly rules which would permit kids to get more tournaments and matches on their own during the Jr High season."

Sorry the middle school rules are just fine the way they are. If people have problems with a lack of coaching or the timing of your season don't try to rain on everyone else's parade. Deal with it locally. Take the initiative like the Smoky Valley club did about getting wrestling into their high school. Instead of whining and
attempting to eliminate all middle school wrestling attempt to change yours. It is my understanding, the KWCA proposed to the KSHSAA this year that the state adopt a standard middle school wrestling season for all participants. This season which is commonly referred to as the "4 sport season" would have wrestling starting immediately after football and ending before the first of the year. After the first of the year that "other" sport would start. This if adopted would be a great deal for us as it would allow the kids who have never experienced wrestling prior to middle school to do both sports equally. In addition, those kids wanting to wrestle federation events on a national level would be able to do so since most of them are after the first of the year.

typhoid_mary is still lurking Vince but with my ADHD condition it's very hard to stay focused on the "novels" that are written! LOL

But now for something constructive to add:

Our club (STA) requests that old/outgrown shoes are brought in at the beginning of the year and whoever wants them can have them as long as they bring them back when they are done. We also rent singlets and when you return it you get more than 1/2 of your money back.

For my family we cut costs by trying to avoid hotel rooms if at all possible even though that means some early mornings and we ALWAYS bring lunch, drinks, snacks etc.,

And I have to agree that at the end of the first session Saturday in Ottawa it got quite loud.

Vince - Christmas list? I don't think your package arrived last year?

You had just been added to my 2004 Christmas list. Oh well here today gone tomorrow! Perhaps Smokeycabin will add you to his list.

The biggest thing I find as a parent that has caused us stress is the cost of wrestling. We didn't really have a problem in the years before since we only had one child and when he started, entry fees were just 8.00. We figured that it cost us about 40 dollars a week for him to wrestle. That includes gas, food, entry fees, ect. Now that another son has joined up, it is about 60 dollars a week. That means we spend over 200 dollars a month just on wrestling. Next year, another one will be ready to join. With our daughter who plays basketball on the weekends, we usually spend 40 dollars a month on tournaments. (her club has a tournament that pay for all entry fees, we just have to pay for gas and since it is usually shorter, there is not much concession expense). Because of the cost of wrestling, we usually don't have both of them attending the same tournaments (we alternate. Also, just my husband attends while I stay home with the other kids. That is how we save on the food cost.

I keep reading about costs... what doesn't cost money when speaking of kid's sports?

You are the parent, you decide if you can afford wrestling. If you can't, talk to your club director - there can be arrangements made.

If you cannot afford to go to distant tournaments, ask if someone can take your child. The greatest thing about wrestling, is the "family-bond" that is created in and between clubs.

We do consider the cost and yes, sports in general is expensive. However, the question was what is causing declining numbers of kids in wrestling. If you are living pay check to pay check, you find that the cost of wrestling can be a huge factor in deciding if you are going out for that season or year. We do kids football, basketball, wrestling, track, baseball and softball. The most expensive sports are football and wrestling. So if we need to cut back due to financial obligations, we will eliminate one of those. As far as having financial help from the club or director, many of them are in the same boat as us financially. It is my child and I will take care of my own but if money starts getting tight, activities start getting cut. There are other activities and sports out there that does not cost as much as wrestling.

"I keep reading about costs... what doesn't cost money when speaking of kid's sports?"

All of us are willing to pay the price or else we wouldn't be here. It's the ones that aren't here that we are worried about. Those people who look at other sports that pay a one time fee of say $50.00 for the season. You cannot compare such things as traveling teams because those are basically all-star teams where participation is generally at the pleasure of a coach or sponsor. Parents of traveling team members know the cost going in or in some cases have those costs paid by sponsorships. In our area, wrestling is treated more like a recreational league and is by far the most expensive of all. Thus, when a parent that doesn't have a previous love and devotion for our sport starts looking into signing their child up for a winter activity the options are these:

1. Both sports have nearly identical up front sign-up fees. But one has recurring fees throughout the season.
2. One has special equipment costs where the other has none.
3. Both practice several times a week up till the season starts then one is likely not to practice again. One's season is half as long as the other.
4. One travels to other cities while the other plays most if not all games in the same city.
5. One is gone for a couple of hours on Saturday while the other may spend all day in a hot over-crowded gym.
6. One gym has stands filled with parents cheering on their team and child while the other has a floor filled with parents/coaches yelling at referees.

You don't need to preach the values and virtues of wrestling to us. We are the believers. But as numbers continue to drop you have to concern yourself with the question, will there eventually be nobody across the mat for my child/grandchild to wrestle?

SportsFan02-I agree completely. We love the sport and the friendships that are made. However, I remember when I went to my first tournament. I graduated from a school that did not have a wrestling program (1A). I did not know anything about wrestling or had even attended a wrestling event. We were there mainly because our son's best friend asked if he would like to join wrestling with him. It was very lucky for us that we did not quite after the first year. That first year, I was not ready or use to the yelling, mass confusion on the mats (nothing made since to me that year), crowded gym's and expense. If it had not been for a few more "experienced" mothers in the club helping me out, we would have quite and went back to basketball.

So sad, but True.

In response to cost issues, you are absolutely correct. Our club does try to reach out to "less fortunate" families and explain that we will work with them. And yes, there is a limit on what a club can do. As far as tournament costs, that's an issue I have strong negative feelings about (against the school districts), but that's another topic.

Sorry about "preaching to the choir", but I was seeing this topic change to a financial issue.

I agree that we need to present this sport to the masses. Most people still think wrestling is what the WWF, or what ever it's called these days, shows on T.V. - or that it is a "brutal" sport. Let's show everyone how AWESOME wrestling is.

Donnie:

You are correct that we somehow need to do a better job of selling wrestling to the masses. I really do believe that we have to generate more interest with the general sports crowd. An example for me of the lack of interest was how the Kansas City Star reported Zach Roberson's NCAA Division I National Championship win on this last Saturday. They had that story clear back on the 15th page of the Sports Page. In between the front page and that story we were saturated with NCAA round of 32 basketball articles. I mean they not even to the quarterfinals yet and we get page after page of reporting on it while they bury a story of a KC Metro Area NCAA Wrestling Champions accomplishment on the 15th page. That should have been on the front page of the Sports Section. Maybe he will get a front page article the day he wins the Olympics. Hopefully they will give him a front page article reporting on his NCAA accomplishment in the near future. It really does upset me the type of media coverage that wrestling gets. I realize it must be because it is not that popular with the general public. Hopefully this will start to change. Wrestling is just too good of a sport. More people need to realize it.

Vince:

Your right, unfourtunatly we live in the state that thinks Bball was invented here. KU and all.
I live down on the State Line, close to the State where they wrestle and an OSU grad, but still in KS. The Sunday Oklahoman had the NCAA's front page. Again the differance of a few miles. But, in OK there are only a few H.S. teams that wrestle West of I-35.
I think the only way OUR sport will increase in popularity is to become more fan frendly. We do compete with the most popular sport in america. Maybe this "Real Pro Wrestling" we keep hearing about will become a reality and bring some of the TV wrestling fans over. And Disney's "Taking it to the Mat" can't hurt. I don't know? But I do agree we need to police our sport better. If ya'all see one of your buddies acting out of place, say something to him or her, in a polite way, normaly they will respect you enough and lighten up on their kid or whatever the situation maybe. It can only help in a possitive way.
I would think that a good 'ol OSU vs. OU or Iowa dual at Gallagher Hall (forget Iba) could spark some ESPN primetime action if enough big sponsors were aware of the interest. This is where the big city guys could help, if they "know someone who knows someone" to get the money to produce these type of shows. They are televised in Oklahoma. If you have never been to one of these duals you haven't witnessed the sport of wrestling yet. That's my 2 cents.

Our club tries to promote a family friendly side of the sport. We all car pool to tournaments. We all bring lunch and snack items that all the families share. We all trade out grown gear. We are all very supportive of each others kids. Consquently, we have seen our clubs numbers nearly double every year. I live in a small town and there are TWO clubs here.
On the topic of a gym that resembles a war zone. This is main thing that concerns, and frankly embarasses me about this sport. I invited my mother-in-law to Ottawa on Sunday to watch her grandson. Now, this woman is a veteran sports spectator. She had three sons of her own who were involved in sports for many years, but never wrestling. She was overwhelmed with the noise level and shocked by the behavior of some of the parents and coaches. I think if a parent or coach can not control their emotions they should definitely not be at matside. And some of them should not be within earshot of their wrestler or any wrestler for that matter. I just don't understand the thought process of screaming at the top of your lungs at a child who is suppose to be having fun. Its not like the house and the farm are riding the outcome of a match. With the little ones your focus should be on building for the years to come and making today a positve experience for them.

start writing letters on a daily basis to your local college/university. the more exposure we have in a 4-year college/university atmosphere will improve the quality of wrestling in the high schools and in kids programs. it will also maintain, if not raise, the level of interest from the federation ages on up.

but you can't just sit and complain about the fact that nothing is happening. you have to express your desire for more 4-year schools to take on men and womens programs. it will succeed and Kansas wrestlers will not be scoring points for DI on to NAIA schools where they have to journey to in order to find a wrestling program.

Mom 152 I don't think that it has much to do with the practices my son is 4 and he practiced 3 days a week for 2 hours from Oct thru March and when I told him the season was over he cried. He loved practices and loved wrestling and can't wait till next year. We have a tough program and he was the youngest on the team and he never complained about practice. This was the best thing for him. I think that the cost does get very expencive. As of Febuary we had already spent over $250. That didn't include motel rooms and the rest of the season. I realize it takes a lot to run a program and a tournament but maybe there is a solution. I like the idea of the reuse of shoes and siglets. I know our club does do some of this with in the club.

Here's one for you Mr. Nowak--On Thursday night I e-mailed channel 9 news and told them of the Championship Tournament in Topeka. Even tried to entice them with the fact that over 7,000 Kansans attend this event every year--the media doesn't care and so It will be up to only those who LOVE this sport to help.

VANFAM7-----THAT IS THE EXACT REASON WE GOT INTO WRESTLING!!!! My whole family helps and enjoys wathcing not only their brother wrestle but we really enjoy cheering on other wrestlers that we have met throughout the years.

BOTTOM LINE--WE HAVE TO TEAM TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS A SPORT THAT FIRST TIME SPECTATORS WANT TO WATCH. Coaches, parents, wrestlers, spectators, directors and everyone needs to help by setting good examples, spredding the word of accomplishments (this includes winning and losing accomplishments--for instance my son really had trouble losing and this sport has taught him that losing just means you have to try harder when you want something or that there could be someone out there that you can learn from.

I'm with you Vince--just say the word--I'll help in any way you need or see fit.