From Sportsfan02 on High School Wrestlers topic 3/17/04: "..., I would worry about all those openings in the younger age groups. While I don't have any numbers to back this up, in scanning the D2 results it appears to me that we have a far lesser number of wrestlers in the 12U, 10U and 8U ages. Certainly, we have fewer than the late 80's early 90's. This should be a warning sign for our sport. If I'm right, and the numbers are continuing to fall as in years past we have a HUGE problem and we better get to addressing it."

I also think this is an observation that is worth discussing and agree that we better start addressing it now. I think especially now is a good time to do it because it is right now during the next 3 weeks that we will have the greatest amount of interest and discussion on the forum. From the past few years I know it just about dies off shortly after the next three weeks.

I too am concerned at what appears to me to be a drop off in overall numbers participating overall. I think we really suffer in comparison to youth basketball participation at this time of year. I believe this hurts wrestling's development and is part of the reason why we see wrestling programs being dropped at the college level and why we get very limited high school and college coverage in the media. I believe if we could reverse that trend maybe we would start to see better media coverage and maybe even a few more college programs could be added eventually.

Maybe sportsfan02 and I are not correct in that this is a potential problem that needs to be discussed and addressed now. If most people do not believe this really is a trend or potential problem then I guess it is a moot point. I would be interested in other thoughts and possible solutions. I know we often have differences of opinion on topics, but I think one common one that we all could agree on is that we would like to see wrestling's popularity and participation grow. Maybe we could find some constructive ideas and ways to do that.

From my parent's perspective I believe things like more split format tournaments could help make wrestling more appealing to a lot of families. I also think we need to get parents who are not coaches or club officers more involved. It might be beneficial to have a parent organization within Kansas youth wrestling.

I also believe we need to advertise our sport better to families who have no experience with it. We need to sell it to them. I am sure that most of you like me believe that we have the best character building sport available for young kids. We need to sell that message to other potential wrestling families. I think more families should be choosing wrestling over basketball. I believe there are a lot of very good athletes right now playing basketball and that many of these athletes would be better wrestlers than basketball players.

A couple of ideas to throw around, one i think the season may be too long, i would like to see it mirror the high school season or just go from Jan to March. The split or slotted tournaments help some of the family time concerns get addressed, I think the use of more round robin formats could increase the mat time for kids and make tournaments more manageable. Perhaps the implementation of the high school and middle school weight classes for those age groups could help too, there are a lot of "tweeners" out there who change classes all the time. A fun addition would be some kids dual events, perhaps an open state caliber tourney for elementary, middle school and/or high school ages. the qualifiers sometimes suck the life out the end of the season. Kansas has great depth in wrestling and the subs and districts do a nice job of weeding out qualifiers and make some monies, but extend the season a great deal and can really burn out wrestling families. I would also like to see the true USA age groups used, lots of good kids set out the down year of their age groups, I don't think this is a good thing. 3 divisions would be good, elementary, middle school and high school, with distinct separation. I think Kansas also misses the boat on the freestyle seasons, this is where the youth obtain the exposure for college scholarships, we have too long in between the state folkstyle and state freestyle championships, and lots of good kids are not exposed to the style that will get them the national exposure they need for the limited amount of scholarships and grants-in-aid.

What if each team or area worked with the local schools a few weeks before the season started. Put together an incredible 5 -10 minute video highlighting how much fun the kids have, getting medals, high fives from friends and so on. Each club could pick a spokesperson or the coach and take 6 or 7 of the wrestlers to the schools and share with the kids how cool wrestling is. Have experienced kids as well as first year kids talking about how much fun wrestling is and some of the things they do. Maybe some kids don't go out because they do not hear alot about wrestling and think they just couldn't do it.
I wrestled from 11 years old on and would of never gone out if someone hadn't asked me. My son was the same. This is his first year and if a good friend hadn't mentioned it to him, he would not of gone out.
Spend some time in the community a few weeks before the season really promoting the sport. If things are promoted right kids could really get excited.

Dave Pitcock, I like that idea. At some schools maybe you could do the talk at a gym and maybe bring a mat along so you could have a couple of the kids give a demonstration. Our club does that for the first year kids at the first practice of the year.

Illegalhold, I will have some questions for you on your suggestions later. There is a lot about what you suggested that I like. It did make me start to think if we really did need Subs, District and then State. Maybe we could eliminate Subs at least.

I would agree with almost all of the above suggestions. (the exception- shortening the season)

Our club is working closely with the "Kids Sporting News" to promote wrestling. Also, if you have wrestlers (all ages) that play football - get them to recruit more wrestlers. (sports compliment each other). Invite a photographer to your tournaments and give them match numbers of your wrestlers (wrestlers dig seeing themselves in action)

Most importantly (is that a word) "Don't coach your novice wrestlers like you coach your open wrestlers!" All these kids need is a pat on the back and a smile from you - their coach. YOU WANT THEM BACK NEXT SEASON!!! If they are doing something wrong, make a note and work on it in practice - not at the tournament.

Split format tournaments is the only way to go! If you disagree, I believe you don't understand the concept.

Freestyle, Freestyle, Freestyle (need I say more?)

Also, promoting this website to your club - get parents involved in anyway you can.

Donnie,

Your club is doing a tremendous job with the information that you are feeding to the "Kids Sporting News". That is a great Kansas City Metro kids sporting news publication and I have never seen any general sports newspaper or magazine give wrestling as much coverage. It is incredible. For anyone interested in subscribing (only $15 a year), getting articles published about your events, or advertising in it:

Kids Sports News Subscriptions
P.O. Box 860385
Shawnee Mission, KS 66286

913-406-1560

http://www.kidsportsnews.com

Advertising: 913-706-8008 Susan Conway

I really think that any Kansas City Metro family involved in kids athletics should be subscribing to this monthly newspaper, especially wrestling families.

Donnie, I think in the October or November edition we should try to get out a big promotion in it for all the Johnson, Wyandotte, Miami, and Douglas County wrestling clubs. Maybe in the same issue we could get them to put something in the football section that would explain the benefits to football players to wrestle and that would direct them to the wrestling section with all the local clubs promotional information.

Illegalhold:

You have a lot in your post and I would just like to address one thing now the freestyle issue which is something Donnie also mentions.

When do you think is the best age for a kid to start freestyle? Last year we tried to start my son with East Kansas as a 6th grader. He decided not to pursue it last year after two weeks and to concentrate on track & field instead. Last year he was a little burned out after the State tournament and he was not comfortable that it was mainly high schoolers participating at his size. So now he will be facing the same decision soon. Is it too early for him to start this as a 7th grader and what do you think is the ideal age to start freestyle?

The ideal age to start Freestyle / Greco is dependant on the wrestler. My son has been wrestling Freestyle/Greco for 3 years. He started when he was in 4th grade. What I did was ease him into it slow. The first two years he wrestled and played baseball. This allowed him to get the feel for Freestyle / Greco. His 3rd year I made him make a choice between baseball and freestyle. I did this for 2 reasons. 1. by doing both sports they detracted from each other. and 2. I didn't have the time to keep up with both of his practices and his younger brothers. He opted for wrestling. And the freestyle / greco experience has paid off. Last year he decided to take the summer off to have some fun.

The difficulty we had, when he was younger and lighter, was finding practice partners for him to work with. Now that he is 14 and over 100 lbs hopefully that will not be so difficult.

So back to the original question of what age should they start. It comes down to the wrestler and what they want to do. Folkstye season is long and to add another 2-3 months of wrestling on top of that can be difficult. The one thing I like about the Freestyle season is that there isn't near the pressure put on the wrestlers. You do not have to worry about weight at the local tournaments. You show up pay your money, get weighed and they pair you up at that point.

Hopefully my post has helped and that I didn't ramble on too much. If any questions feel free to contact me.

DRNaylor, thank you that is helpful.

I could not agree more freestyle is so much more relaxed and my son did it 2 years ago and took off last year and has decieded to do it this year and not play baseball.

Naylor said it about adding 3 mths. on the season is difficult. Next thing you know your going nine.
And yes decisions have to be made about baseball, about a lot of summer things. A parent asked me how I made my son do that?
I asked him why he made that choice?
We still managed to spend some time on the water!

I want to post also PAOLA is doing Freestyle/Greco-Roman week after USAW Nationals,We are starting. Just goes to show you it doesn't end. Come and see us, we've got a big room and a couple of great coaches with the heart & drive of Champions. They instill it in their wrestlers. Ask for info. We'll have some flyers.

Our son started freestyle/Greco after he didn't make it to folkstyle state as a 7 year old. We heard of a club in Garden City coached by Bob Dey and how these two styles of wrestling would help him improve. He was all for the idea as he is not a baseball player and we haven't ever regreted the decision. Not only does he have the privilege of learning from one of the best freestyle/greco coaches around, become a much better wrestler, but more importantly his love of wrestling has grown tremendously. If he had his choice, he would freestyle & Greco all season and skip folksyle. Freestyle is so creative and exciting. There are so many ways to score and you really have to think to be good at it. Tournaments are very laid-back and you see tough competition. There are very few easy matches. It is so much more condusive to the wrestling family because you show up on Saturday, pay your money and wrestle. There is so much more flexibility. We love it so much, our six year old and his wrestling partner will both start freestyle this year and will get to wrestle other kids their own age in the Colorado tournaments. I think it will be a real positive experience for both of them because they are natural rollers which can rack up points in Freestyle and there just isn't the pressure with fewer kids, less crowds and noise.

This was posted by LegRider in another topic but since it referred to this topic I thought I would include it because he made a suggestion on something that would be a simple thing for everyone to do and would be a start in achieving the goal of this topic:

"AS for the brackets, I don't agree with "you buy a bracket or you wait until tomorrow morning." If they want to charge for a bracket that is already filled out and ready to go then that's great. I believe our club sells brackets. This sport is already expensive enough without trying to force people to buy a bracket. There is a post right now titled "Can we increase wrestling numbers and interest in Kansas," well if people were a little more corteous to one another that would be a start. Not everyone has money overflowing out of their pockets and if they can't afford one and just want to see it, what's the harm. I know there are people in our club that are less fortunate and can barely afford what few tournaments they do attend.

My wife complains about posts that turn into books so I'll stop for now. Thanks for listening!"

--------------------
Jason Hosey
Chanute Wrestling Club


Jason I am glad to see that I not the only husband whose wife complains about long posts. Of course if you are very familiar with my posting you know my wife has not influenced me much.

I'm losing interest in wrestling after reading through the first sentence or two of the posts on this topic. I'm ready for baseball already!

(No one get upset - this is an inside joke from an anonymous STA parent to Vince!) :p

Typhoid_mary, anonymous STA parent my eye! Someone is off of old Vince Nowak's Christmas gift list and we both know who that is.

I believe the expense of our sport is a big factor in decreasing numbers. Especially to a family with more than one child. USA card for 2 kids $60, 3 kids $90 and so on. Then factor in $12 to $15 each kid each event you enter, add shoes, headgear,and gasoline its pretty expensive. To some parents Im sure this is a deterrent.To parents already involved in this sport we know the positives out weigh the expense. I believe the best advertisment is word of mouth. I come in contact with alot of kids coaching other sports, and I always try to convince them to come try out wrestling. It always gets one or two to come try. I also would encourage our children to promote the sport to thier friends. If my kids want to try somthing my wife and I will find a way for them to do it. I believe most parents are this way,so make sure the sport is enjoyable and more kids will be invloved. I think most kids leave this sport because of over zealous parents, we all need to try to keep that in mind during the heat of the battle. Good luck to all moving on to state.
Jon Murray
Parsons Wrestling Club

Jon;
I agree with your statement "I think most kids leave this sport because of over zealous parents". I have seen so many parents berating or physically abusing their kids after they didn't win a match. I have also seen coaches do the same. THIS is more detrimental to a kid's attitude about a sport than anything else. Too many parents and coaches are trying to relive their supposedly "glory years" through their kid wrestlers. The one thing they need to remember: These are kids, not prfessional athletes.
I don't treat my paid employees that do not perform up to expectations as bad as I see most of these kids get treated. If I did treat them that way, I would be up for a lawsuit from the KS Dept. of Labor so fast it would make my head spin. Why do these parents and coaches think they can treat their kids this way and still expect them to want to wrestle?

1) Better officiating! Rules and approach needs to be adjusted based on age of wrestlers. Better attitudes and focus on promotion of wrestling instead of taking the authority role too far.

2) More control by the state over tournaments. It is hard to make any money for your club by having a tournament when there are multiple tournments in the same area.

3) More novice, and better policing of novice competition. Perhaps a seperate Novice State tournament for 1st year wrestlers only. Texas has a novice state tournament.

4) Six and under state. This is where the growth will have to start. Have 16 and under state a different weekend.

5) Lower costs. This would particulary apply to those venues who do not permit the carry in of food and drink. Centralize the location of state and get rid of the two night minimum hotel stays.

6) Get rid of Jr. High wrestling or have the KSHSAA adopt more competition friendly rules which would permit kids to get more tournaments and matches on their own during the Jr High season.

maybe coaches and experianced wrestling parents should make sure to be extra helpful to new wrestling families by telling them about thier kids rate of developement. tell them to wrestle close to home thier first season to avoid 2 hour drives with a 2 and out. This sport is fiercely competitive and in most cases it takes alot of hard work and time to develope the skill needed to be competitive. Be supportive of opponents after a win. Let them know that if they keep working rewards will come. Nothing good is easy, thats why this sport is great. Long term commitments and goals met teach our kids not to give up. Thats why I feel we all need to show support and encouragement to all envolved especially the new comers. Maybe this type of action will help increase our numbers.
Jon Murray
Parsons Wrestling Club