We had a late entry to our Cougar tournament from Ottawa. I had another coach tell me the kid has won two opens this year. I addressed it by asking his coach if he had won the opens. He told me no. I looked up the results and found he did win two OPENS.

Of course he beat up on everyone in his bracket at our NOVICE. What can be done to make sure his dad(Coach) doesn't do it again? Quite frankly, after watching how excited his dad was with winning, I felt they disrespected the honor system of youth wrestling. What can be done?

I am the father in question here and I would like to say that I was approached, and I was asked if this ottawa kid had won first at cetain ternaments.My reply was no because he did in fact get third at one of the tournaments in question and second in another. This boy is 7 and only wrestled 3 tourneys last year which was his first year. I was not trying to direspect any body or club or wrestling in general. This boy also wrestled at 52 lbs and only weighs 41 lbs. Since he was to a big disadvantage due to weight and the fact that he wrestled for 1 month last year and 2 months this year I thought he would be considered a novice. I am sorry if a disrespected anybody. It won't happen again. Can somebody please share with me the guidelines for being a novice. I am a new coach for Ottawa and I appoligize for any embarassment to the ottawa club. Please don't look down on the ottawa team because they are a very well known and respected team.

It is a very honorable thing to do in coming forward! Your explanation adds a bit of light on this situation.

To IowaStyle, I assume the Ottawa club was not aware of this entry. But, if something similar were to happen again, I would contact the club director and make inquiries of them!

Parents, remember if you independently enter your kid, that you are placing yourself and club under scrutiny. Be unfront with your wrestlers ability!

KCdad - I agree with your point. I don't know what the official criteria is to be considered a 'novice' but based on what you said, to this 'layman' he sure would seem like a novice to me.

So, what is the criteria for being labeled a novice?

If you were wrong in not following the criteria, it would definitely fall under the category of an honest mistake.

I responded privately to this question. My thoughts in general though is we need a clear definition as to what is a novice wrestler. Clubs can also designate their own tournament guidelines for their tournament.

I think that the "unoffical" rule of thumb is a 2 year maximum wrestler that has not placed in open tournament with more than 4 wrestlers. We need to keep in mind that "Novice" is set up to help build confidence and skills for those kids who aren't up to competing in the "Open" tournaments. If you enter a kid who can compete in the opens into novice tournaments, you really aren't helping either side. The novice kids will get frustrated and quit, and the better wrestler doesn't get any better by wrestling novice kids.

I find it odd that the father or coach as it may be, didn't volunteer the information the host club was looking for. They had to ask about specific open tournaments? If I am understanding the post correctly, then the father/coach, through his silence, demonstrates he knew he was doing something at least questionable.

I am a mother of a third year wrestler. To my knowledge, I was told that if the child placed first or second in any open tournament at least twice, then he cannot wrestle novice. It happened to my son last year. He wrestled novice. There was a kid in one of his brackets that we knew for sure wrestled in the open tournament and placed first. It was totally unfair to my child who was learning. He just "beat" up on all of the other novice children. I was quite angry over it.

I know the one rule of thumb is something they have toyed with in Oklahoma, is there any specific rule here in Kansas. I would love to see it.

Again, i'm the father in question . To all who replied thank you for your replies good or bad. To Iowastyle if you see fit , I will send the medal and bracket back and it be awarded to the 2nd placer along with my apologies.to the parents and children in this bracket, im sorry and pray you dont feel as though we were taking advantage of you or your children, that was not my intent.

I am all for someone admitting thier faults. This guy seems pretty genuine here. We all have a few lessons to learn and it looks like this father may have learned one here. It doesn't look like this guy will be doing this again.Since there is no set standards for novice(there clearly should be!) maybe we should commend him for coming forward and try to fix the situation by setting some fixed standards so that no other children or coaches get hurt here!

What would be the penalty for an individual or club caught doing this, and how would it be enforced if we had a novice standard?

why not suspension? Or maybe the club would not be able to enter novice tournaments for a while? I don't know! What is the penalty for entering at the wrong age? Or breaking any other clearly stated rule? Now this is under the assumption that there would be clearly stated rules and everyone notified and then if the rules are broken action is taken. Which at this point I don't think that the rules are clear enough to take action on any body or club.

There was an official stance taken two years ago by USAW KS and there were handouts given to each club. (I might still have a copy).

The criteria for Novice wrestlers was:

1. If you have won 4 Novice tournaments, you are no longer Novice.
2. If you have won ONE Open tournament, you are no longer Novice.

Even with this clearly stated, there are exceptions. If you have a wrestler that was entered in an Open tournament with one other kid at his weight. He beats that wrestler 2 out of 3 and gets 1st. There could still be serious doubt that the winner is an Open wrestler. I still believe that any responsible coach can tell a novice wrestler without too much trouble.

Thank you for responding KCDad. You are commendable in coming forward. My goal is to promote the sport of wrestling. Most importantly is keeping the athletes in the sport year in and year out. Hopefully other parents and coaches will learn from our experience. Good luck the rest of the year.

Sportsfan, I remember this well in Oklahoma, there the wrestler, and parent was put on suspension until a hearing could take place, often times an emergency hearing via conference call by the region the wrestler was a part of. Normally on a first offense there was a slap on the wrist, and I do know of a second offense on at least in one case resulting in a 1 year ban from the sport.

The truth is, few cases were reported when in fact it clubs knew it went on. There was also a penalty, at least I think there was, for the club the wrestler wrestled with. I think they have changed their owld rule, but interaction with other states when establishing a set rule would be appropriate. I really think this is a problem with many states, not just Kansas.

I am the president of Ottawa Mat Masters and all of this has just been brought to my attention this evening. Believe you and me, Rick and I are quite upset about this situation and are handling it with all parties. James and his children are new to our club and he is currently helping us coach as well. Another coach of ours took it upon himself to call parents Sat. evening from what I understand and told them to come on up to Shawnee for the tournament since Burlington was cancelled. Yes, these are OPEN wrestlers and SHOULD NOT have even been allowed into this tournament. When James was approached by another father he simply answered about the 2 tournaments that he was asked about. In our opinion, our wrestlers can wrestle in novice the first 2 years as a beginner. But once they have moved to open tournaments and start placing they ARE NOT ALLOWED to go back to novice tournaments. COMMON SENSE!!! Rick and I are extending our sincerist apologies to the Cougar Kids Wrestling Club and to the parents and children that any of our open wrestlers were subjected to. I am asking the parents of the wrestlers to return the brackets and medals that they won so they can be rewarded to the right child. James and the other coach in question will be handled privately within our club. Ottawa has a reputation to uphold and a fabulous club that has been put back together over the past 3 or 4 years and we hope to keep our good standing in the wrestling community. The gull of someone to take MY POSITION as this club president and use it to enter children in a tournament on his own is not tolerable!!! Once again, I apologize to everyone involved. Renee' Carver

I hope everything gets worked out here. I feel sorry for the kids that really don't know what is going on or why it happened. I hope they are deault with in a good fashion and people remember they are just kids following advise of their parents or adults.

Thanks Renee!

I feel for the father/coach in question. There should be some guidelines, but no hard and fast rule. Too often people want a black and white rule because they dont want to handle the particular circumstances. Way too many variables exist in these tournaments.

I am personally dealing with this same issue. My 5 year old son in a low weight meets some of the "open" criteria. He won a B bracket in an open last year. Is this an open as described above? He placed in an open this year, but barely, beating one kid and getting schooled by two others. After going 1 and 6, including losing 5 in a row, I put him in a big novice, hoping to get an equal match-up. I was wrong. He easily won 2 matches and I suppose I could be accused of the same wrong-doing.

Leave the guy alone. Forget about adopting a hard and fast rule. Try to predict the competition/brackets and do the best you can to wrestle your kids where they can compete. Sometimes they'll be in over their heads, sometimes they'll be on top.

Lastly, I think the Ottawa coach and club officers should quit worrying about it.